Typically I encourage people to follow the manufacturer’s instructions. Especially when the company has clear, detailed, and easy to understand instructions. But when it comes to both Ditra Heat and Ditra Heat TB [edit: now called Ditra-Heat Duo] there are two things that I just don’t feel are good ideas.
This post deals with the installation of Ditra Heat mats only and not the heating wire.
So what are the two things you want to avoid when installing Ditra Heat mats?
Pre-fill the waffles. Always.
I feel strongly about this. Now the Ditra Heat Handbook doesn’t specifically tell you to not pre-fill the waffles. However, it does tell you to start setting the tile right over the mat. Also, the photos show the tile being set right over the orange heat mats. This is not a good idea, in my opinion.
Why Schluter Ditra is so cool: Uncoupling membranes explained
First of all, what does pre-filling the waffles mean? This is where you skim coat thinset mortar over the top of the heat mat. You do this with the flat side of your trowel. Then you let it dry before installing the tile. This skim coat layer helps to protect the wires below. This is important for two reasons.
- It helps to protect the wires from the teeth of your trowel when combing the mortar.
- If you have to pick a tile back up after it’s been set (during installation) you won’t drag the wires out with it. The wire can stick to the underside of the tile. You can prevent this by pre-filling the waffles.
An additional benefit of prefilling Ditra mats is being able to snap chalk lines and actually being able to read them.
Don’t install tile the same day over the Ditra Heat mat
Schluter says this is ok. Again, I think this is a bad idea. As mentioned, when you have to pick a tile up and re-install it (you will have to do this- more than once) the suction of the tile can pull up the Ditra mat causing it to break the bond to the plywood.
My advice: install the Ditra Heat mat one day and install the electric heat wire a different day. Then skim coat the wires with thinset and let that dry. You have enough to do just installing the tile properly. You don’t need additional challenges or things going wrong.
Nathan says
Did you have any issues getting the DITRA HEAT-TB to stick to the thinset? When I layed the pad down it didn’t seem to grab the fuzzy backing.
diy tile guy says
I have noticed some issues with getting the heat membranes to stick. Not just Ditraheat tb, but also ditra heat, prodeso heat, and suntouch heat matrix. When I’ve peeled them back to check the coverage it hasn’t been what I would like. They have all been fine the next day and well adhered.
But currently I don’t know if this is a something to be concerned about, or not. I just don’t have enough information about it.
If yourself, or anyone else, has any feedback on this I would love to hear it.
Bruce says
This happened to me on the first few sheets. Always peel back the first sheet to make sure that the thinset is completely “soaking into” the fleece. When the thinset is too dry, it will not be absorbed properly by the fleece and when you peel it back you will see white areas. Make sure that you use enough water to make it drip from the trowel and yet stilll hold a trowel pattern on the floor. Then when you examine the fleece it will be soaking it in, as desired. Good luck!
Joe says
When running the lead wire from the membranes to the thermostat box, I have a lot of extra lead wire. Can I rim that and how do I deal with the cable sheathing?
diy tile guy says
Yes, you can trim it down. The sheathing just gets stripped down enough for the wire ends to show. It’s similar to wiring in a light switch or an outlet in that regard.
One cautionary note: The wire leads can be cut but the heated portion of the wire can’t be. I know this isn’t what you are asking about but just want to make it clear for anyone that may happen onto this comment.
Tim says
Please help!
1. Modified or unmodified thinset to smooth over the ditra-heat mat?
2. Small mosaic marble tile going over the ditra-heat mat (with thinset smoothing coat), modified or unmodified to install this type of tile?
diy tile guy says
1. Schluter wants unmodified over the top unless it’s their own brand of thinset. Then it’s ok to use modified.
FYI, Schluter now has their own line of mortars and some are even modified. They say that they are “self curing”. The thing is that this self curing technology is not unique to them and has been available in other manufacturer’s mortars for some time now. This is the reason other mortar manufacturers have required modified over Schluter products. So going over Ditra with a modified mortar is probably not just ok, but could likely be a better installation. But I want to make it clear that it would void Schluter’s warranty.
2. Same answer as above with one caveat: Schluter has a 2 inch minimum tile size for going over their uncoupling membranes. The reason is because they are worried about point loads- too much pressure concentrated in one small spot. For a residential bathroom you may choose to take the risk but at least you’re informed enough to take the risk if you choose.
Pat McGroin says
Unmodified. You may get away with a modified if you use very small format tile and give a long curing period, outside of that. unmodified or your thinset will never cure.
diy tile guy says
Good comment!
Allan says
Not finding the info I need, and want to make sure I don’t screw up now…….help this poor sole!
1. Bathroom floor has 1/4 ” Hardiebacker attached with thin set and screws to plywood subfloor.
2. I will be putting Ditra Heat mat down to it.
3. I have 18″x18″ Porcelain Tile.
Not finding what thin set to use between Ditra and Hardiebacker. Modified or not???
I have Un-modified for the Tile to Ditra, but I may need special for the large Porcelain tiles?
I know Schluter wants unmodified between tile and Ditra, but what under Ditra to Hardiebacker?
Have both HD(for Custom products) and Lowe’s (Mapei) close by to purchase.
Any thing I am forgetting?
Thanks!
diy tile guy says
You can go with either modified or unmodified with the Hardibacker but I would push you towards modified. There’s too much riding on it with the wire and the tile to have something go wrong.
One thing about the unmodified mortars is that they tend to be the cheapest mortars available and they aren’t all created equal. I would encourage you to stay away from any thinset that is under $10. A good unmodified mortar for large tiles is what you want. I’m pretty sure Lowes carries something. If you have time to order Mapei Kerabond T from Lowes that would be what I recommend.
http://www.mapei.com/US-EN/Tile-&-Stone-Installation-Systems/Dry-Set-Mortars/Kerabond-T
maureen says
I am trying to tile river rock on my bathroom wall. The stones are approximately 2″ x 3″ and anywhere from 1/2″ to 2″ thick. So some are pretty heavy and some are very light. At the store, they recommended to me to use TEC large stone mortar-latex modified. I am combing it to 1/4″. However, the stones are seriously sagging. I know I should work from the bottom up, but I am working around a mirror so I really do not want that as my bottom.
Do you have any suggestions for me? I would really appreciate it. It will really save my sanity. thank you!!
diy tile guy says
A lighter weight thinset may help but probably making the thinset to a thicker consistency would work the best.
Patrick says
You can use laticrete and you wont get the sag but its a out 45 a bag
Chris says
Why can’t prodeso be or ditra be glued down over hardwood?
diy tile guy says
Too much movement and too unstable. You can read Schluter’s comments about their feelings on hardwood floors here.
https://www.schluter.com/schluter-us/en_US/faq/ditra-ditraxl-over-hardwood-flooring
Serge says
I am planning to install Ditra-heat-tb over concrete in a bedroom and Ditra in hallway leading to that bedroom. The difference in height is 5mm or 3/16″. Is this going to be a problem? How do I transition? Thank you.
diy tile guy says
It would depend on what you are transitioning to. But typically people will use wood or metal profile reducers to go from a higher tile surface to a lower surface.
Serge says
It will be the same tile in the bedroom and in the hallway. I was hoping to get away without metal profile reducers by sloping the tile and make the transition from area with ditra-heat-tb to area with regular ditra invisible. Would sloping the tile work? Or I still should use the reducers? Thank you.
diy tile guy says
I didn’t realize that you were going to transition from Ditra-Heat TB to more Ditra. You might consider the following options:
-Running Ditra-Heat TB (now called Ditra-Heat Duo) throughout the whole installation and only heating one section of it.
-Using Ditra XL for the non-heated part. Ditra XL is the same thickness and is probably a little bit less expensive than Ditra-Heat Duo.
-Running regular Ditra-Heat mat (not Duo) in the non heated section. This is probably the most impractical of these three options.
If you still want to use 1/8 inch thick Ditra in the non heated section then you could transition with just a tile. If you were using, say wood plank tiles, then you could always run the plank a different direction at the doorway which is something often done with real wood flooring installations. You would have to angle the tile but it would still work.
Serge says
Is it okay to combine Ditra Heat Duo and Ditra XL within the same room? I figured using XL for the unheated areas would save me around 300$ over the whole basement project. Is it worth the trouble? Thank you.
DIYTileGuy says
It’s fine to combine the two. I’ve done the same thing.
Serge says
The floor near the wall is sloped up a little bit (starts about 6 inches from the wall). I am thinking to stop the Duo 6″ from the wall and fill the gap between Duo and the wall with regular Ditra (1/8″) and then skim coat over the Ditra to bring the level up to Duo. Will this work? Can I use polymer modified skim coat type mortar for this or unmodified thinset will be better?
Thank you very much for your advise..
DIYTileGuy says
That should work. I don’t think it would be recommended by the manufacturer but it’s definitely a way to solve the problem
John says
I am considering skim coating over Ditra Duo heat cables over concrete substrate. It could be 3 or 4 days before I start installing the tile. Will the skim coating crack or crumble when working on it to install the tile.
diy tile guy says
Yes, there will be small cracks and crumbling. This is fairly normal because there is a small amount of movement in the plastic before the tile is installed. As long as you clean and vacuum it well prior to installing tile then you should be fine.
John Safuser says
I am planning on installing Ditra heat in a bathroom. I wish to install a redundant heat wire(not connected at same time) in case the initial one fails at some point in the future. Can the heat wire be dual run right next to each other? Can the non powered backup wire cross over the live one? Please advise?
diy tile guy says
Unorthodox for sure but I’ll speculate: I don’t think it would be an issue to run a redundant heat wire nor cross over the real heat wire as long as only one or the other is working- and not both. However, crossing the wires could lead to an uneven floor and also leave the high wire exposed to potential damage.
That’s my speculation but this isn’t something that you should take people on the internet’s word for it. A call to Schluter’s tech line is advisable. 🙂
Corey says
Apparently I’m late to seeing this, but do not ever cross wires under tile. Also, have your second wire in a totally different area than the first.
DIYTileGuy says
Good tips. Yes!
Pat says
I realize that following the manufactures specs to use the Schluter Ditra membrane is recommended and the best option. I personally dislike Schluter mats in general so is it possible to not use the membrane at all and pour a self leveling layer over my wires instead of going through a triple layering process?
diy tile guy says
Yes. If you’re going over a wood subfloor then Ardex makes a product called Liquid Backer Board that works great for this purpose.
Otherwise, your supposed to use lath for reinforcement and Mapei makes a plastic lath that won’t cut into the electric wires. Then you have more options for self levelers by using that.
If your going over concrete then the self levelers doesn’t need reinforcement.
Alex says
Hi, I have installed my Ditra membrane and realized after the fact that it would be cool to have heated floor. Can I install heat cable on top of the regular Ditra membrane? Thanks for your help!
diy tile guy says
I don’t know whether Schluter would approve, or not. You would have to call their tech line to find out.
But I don’t see a reason that it wouldn’t work. I don’t think self leveling over it would be a good idea but you could probably coat it with thinset.
Here’s a little known and probably against the rules tip: before the days of Ditra-Heat some guys would slice the ridge part of the waffles on normal Ditra and stuff their wires in there.
But you didn’t hear that from here. 😉
Alex says
Haha great, thanks a lot for your help!
John says
Just had this installed and the guys out down durock, then ditra heat mats, then put self leveling concrete on top of that, and finally the next day laid down stone. Is this a completely botched job? I stopped payment on their check…
diy tile guy says
Not necessarily.
I don’t think Schluter wants self leveling over the top but some self leveling companies will warranty the installation. But it depends on which brand, which product, and how it was applied.
If you can find out which product they used then you can contact the manufacturer and see what they say.
But there’s nothing wrong with Ditra Heat over cement board.
Alex says
Can I do like a stair pattern with my electric wire to go around curves of a shower base ?
Alex says
That is one notch each stair . So over, down, over, down over down
diy tile guy says
As long as you keep the spacing consistent you can run it how you want. Personally, I don’t care for stair-stepping and prefer to keep the lines running straight but it that’s more of a ocd thing than anything.
Rob says
Hello,
Im using prodeso heat membrane and it was mentioned to use an unmodified thinset on top of the membrane – but what is recccomended to use to adhere the membrane to a concrete basement bathroom floor that has been already levelled with self leveller? Modified or unmodified? Thank you 😉
diy tile guy says
I don’t know that Prodeso requires unmodified over the top. I’m almost positive that they don’t but I can’t seem to locate their install instructions online anywhere- including on their own website- which seems quite odd to me.
However, unmodifed should be ok over concrete but I hate encouraging anyone to use unmodified mortars as there are much better modified choices out there.
edit: Nuheat sells a relabeled version of Prodeso Heat membrane and they have installation instructions on their website. They mention both modified and unmodified are ok.
http://www.nuheat.com/products/heatingsystems/cable-membrane
Chris says
Hi
I have installed ditra heat with modified thinset. The heat cable was put down and the flooring guy installed unmodified thinset from mapei (kerabond) over the ditra and cable before starting the ceramic. It as been 48 hours since the thinset was installed and i notice this morning when i was walking on it that there was cracking sound. I puch down on the thinset over the round in the ditra and the thinset is caving in at mostly every round but over the chanel for the heat cable everthing seems ok. Is this normal?
diy tile guy says
This sounds normal. The crunching sounds and even thinset coming loose, especially in the centers, if something that happens with prefilling.
Working on it, kneeling on it, and putting pressure on certain areas can cause the mortar to come loose.
The loose areas should be removed prior to installing tile and should be refilled in the process of tiling.
Glen says
I put down Ditra Heat mat in a small bathroom and it adhered great to the subfloor(plywood) except for a 6″ spot near the wall. How can I fix this bubble and make it adhere without lifting the entire mat? The thinset has hardened. Installed 40 hours ago.
diy tile guy says
This happens sometimes and the fix if pretty easy. Cut the bubble out with a razor knife, lift out that bubble, and replace that section.
Pam says
Hi, and thank you for your wonderful blog. What is the “thinnest” heat plus uncoupling system you know of? I’m trying to stay close to adjacent floor height!
diy tile guy says
I think 1/4 inch is pretty standard and about as thin as you can get. Ditra Heat, Prodeso heat, Suntouch’s Heat Matrix (actually from MD Building products) are all about the same.
Julie says
I am thinking about DIY’ing the install of Ditra Heat Duo in my basement. I’ve read everything I can find on the process and watched endless videos. My fear is that I do something that may void the warranty.
Just read your comment re: prefilling the waffles. Sounds logical to me, two questions:
1.after this pre-fill dries does it not crack when walking about tiling the floor?
2. I am tiling over concrete and plan on concrete/modified/Ditra Duo/unmodified/tile. Should you use the unmodified to fill the waffles and then another unmodified to tile?
Thanks in advance!
Trying to save $3000 :))
diy tile guy says
Yes, prefilling can crack.
I’m not sure why you would want to use two different unmods above Ditra-Heat Duo. I would use whatever you are going to use to install the tile.
If you meant that you wanted to use modified to prefill then that’s fine. At least I’ve heard that Schluter doesn’t have a problem with that.
Congrats on saving $3000. This is what’s great about DIYing.
Dan says
Hey there, I’m probably a couple of months too late, but the ditra heat instructions specify unmodified thinset between the slab and membrane. Modified thinset cures by drying, and while a wood subfloor allows this, a slab does not. Hope this helps someone, anyways!
Alan Berezin says
Have you ever poured leveling compound over the Ditra Duo + wires directly? Schulter says ‘no, use thinset’. But my contractor didnt level the old floors before putting Ditra down.
Thanks for the great tips!
DIYTileGuy says
All self levelers are not created equal so it’s a matter of using the right product for the right application.
Ardex makes a leveler called Liquid Backer Board and they approve this product over their own Flexbone uncoupling membrane.
The idea of that it will last flat but doesn’t have so much strength that it grabs and curls the edges.
Other manufacturers probably have products that work similarly but this is a relatively new technology so your options may be limited.
Additionally, you’ll probably be in no man’s land as far as warranties go but it’s a way to solve a problem.
Alan Berezin says
Thanks. What primer do you use for Ardex Liquid Backer Board over Ditra?
DIYTileGuy says
I don’t believe a primer is needed for going over uncoupling membranes but, again, this is where reading the most current and up-to-date instructions is advisable as things can change without notice.
Corey says
Sweet baby Jesus
Please tell me you are kidding about not understanding why you do not skim out the ditra heat/duo and let it dry ahead of time (if you are going to boast about NTCA and CTEF, please stop persuading tile installers to take shortcuts) . You want ONE coat of mortar between heat wire/ditra mat and tile. That way the heat is as efficient as possible. Having one layer, letting it dry, and adding another one is asking for it. This is not correct. Basic heat, tile/masonry knowledge, and why they do not say to do this. While you should definitely skim in the ditra as you are setting it (duh), do not let it dry before installing over it.
As far as your chalk line situation, you can use sharpie or hairspray over a chalk line to preserve it.
I agree with not tiling over the ditra immediately and always apply any kind of ditra underlayment a day prior to installation.
As far as being worried about having to pick up tiles and the mat with it because of needing to add mortar, the answer is simple: you should always prep any surface you are going to tile (floors or walls) completely before you start setting tile. A rookie mistake that can lead to mistakes and headache that no one wants.
Also, I know this will sound crazy, but you don’t have to use schluter products to install a quality tile project. And honestly, chances are, if you are using schluter shower systems, you don’t really know what you are doing. Some Ditra products are convenient and make things in the right situation, but always ask if your tile installer is capable of doing the project without any Ditra products. Their reaction will tell you how much they really know.
Don’t want to sound harsh, but I hate bad practices being passed around in our industry. I’m always learning as well and hope this helps!
Cheers to you also choosing such a tedious and maticulous trade!
DIYTileGuy says
I’ve heard your arguments but you haven’t changed my mind. Ditraheat will heat two layers that are the same thickness just fine.
Additionally, your comments about prepping the surface are correct but still doesn’t mean that a tile won’t have to be installed, picked back up, and reinstalled.
It’s important to keep in mind that this blog is aimed at the DIYer who is going to have a more difficult time doing perfect prep work. This would, therefore, increase the chances of having to pick tiles up after they’ve been set.
I feel it’s more important to protect the wire than to worry about any alleged heat inefficiencies.
As always, my opinion. 🙂
Alan Berezin says
What about floating floors above Ditra-Duo/Nuheat. Do you thinset down the wires and float the LVP above it? Ive have read/heard so many strategies. Among them:
1) Ditra+wires then thinset then tile is the only really good combo.
2) Ditra+wires then thinset then laminate or LVP (floating?) will work but unlikely mfg will approve it.
3) Ditra+wires then thinset then only solid hardwood (floating?) because heat might delaminate engineered hardwood glue for top layer and cause similar problems with other products.
4) Ditra+wires then thinset then gemcore (floating?) or other ~70 stone product which is approved for at least hydronic heat. But need very level floor which I dont have and which is hard to level for other reasons.
From Schluter:
——–
Schluter®-Systems currently only recommends the installation of ceramic, porcelain or natural stone tile over the DITRA-HEAT system.
thx
Alan
DIYTileGuy says
I’ve only installed tile over DitraHeat. I’ve never installed LVT or anything else.
Would it work? I think it’s conceivable but I don’t know how to accomplish it.
You might try to contact some of the other manufacturers such as Suntouch or Nuheat. They both have wire and membrane systems that complete with DitraHeat and may have guidance for non-tile floors.
Pam says
You’ve already helped me a lot, thank you in advance for this question! I plan to prefill the ditra heat mat with a modified, then apply the tile with ditraset. My questions are:
1) when you have to pull up a 12×24″ tile to check for coverage etc., do you find that the suction pulls a lot of the dried prefilled mortar out of the mat?
2) do you feel like a highly modified mortar would be less likely to be pulled out of the mat in the above scenario, vs a lightly modified one like ultraflex 1?
2) how loose or wet do you mix your prefill mortar? Seems like wetter would be better.
DIYTileGuy says
Yes, pulling up tile will pull out little chunks of mortar. I haven’t found a good combination to prevent this. When prefilling, normal tile mortar probably works the best but I usually use what I have left over from sticking the mat down and that mortar is wetter than normal. Bottom line is that I don’t think it matters that much.
Ken says
I’ve laid Ditra Heat membrane over plywood and OSB a couple times and was always given Mapei UltraFlex 1 by the tile store. Mapei UltraFlex 1 does meet or exceed ANSI 118.11 requirements. I’ve never had a problem securing the membrane, but I often wonder if I should be using something with more adhesion?
DIYTileGuy says
This product is fine. The ANSI 118.11 is the test for plywood adhesion and so it’s suitable for use over plywood. Personally, I like to work with premium products so I typically would go with UltraFlex 2 as a minimum. But there’s nothing wrong with UltraFlex 1 for the application that you are referring to.