Typically I encourage people to follow the manufacturer’s instructions. Especially when the company has clear, detailed, and easy to understand instructions. But when it comes to both Ditra Heat and Ditra Heat TB [edit: now called Ditra-Heat Duo] there are two things that I just don’t feel are good ideas.
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This post deals with the installation of Ditra Heat mats only and not the heating wire.
So what are the two things you want to avoid when installing Ditra Heat mats?
Pre-fill the waffles. Always.
I feel strongly about this. Now the Ditra Heat Handbook doesn’t specifically tell you to not pre-fill the waffles. However, it does tell you to start setting the tile right over the mat. Also, the photos show the tile being set right over the orange heat mats. This is not a good idea, in my opinion.
Why Schluter Ditra is so cool: Uncoupling membranes explained
First of all, what does pre-filling the waffles mean? This is where you skim coat thinset mortar over the top of the heat mat. You do this with the flat side of your trowel. Then you let it dry before installing the tile. This skim coat layer helps to protect the wires below. This is important for two reasons.
- It helps to protect the wires from the teeth of your trowel when combing the mortar.
- If you have to pick a tile back up after it’s been set (during installation) you won’t drag the wires out with it. The wire can stick to the underside of the tile. You can prevent this by pre-filling the waffles.
An additional benefit of prefilling Ditra mats is being able to snap chalk lines and actually being able to read them.
Don’t install tile the same day over the Ditra Heat mat
Schluter says this is ok. Again, I think this is a bad idea. As mentioned, when you have to pick a tile up and re-install it (you will have to do this- more than once) the suction of the tile can pull up the Ditra mat causing it to break the bond to the plywood.
My advice: install the Ditra Heat mat one day and install the electric heat wire a different day. Then skim coat the wires with thinset and let that dry. You have enough to do just installing the tile properly. You don’t need additional challenges or things going wrong.
Nathan says
Did you have any issues getting the DITRA HEAT-TB to stick to the thinset? When I layed the pad down it didn’t seem to grab the fuzzy backing.
DIYTileGuy says
I have noticed some issues with getting the heat membranes to stick. Not just Ditraheat tb, but also ditra heat, prodeso heat, and suntouch heat matrix. When I’ve peeled them back to check the coverage it hasn’t been what I would like. They have all been fine the next day and well adhered.
But currently I don’t know if this is a something to be concerned about, or not. I just don’t have enough information about it.
If yourself, or anyone else, has any feedback on this I would love to hear it.
John says
When ditra first came out and few people carried it we would put the tile right on the ditra without ditra cemented to a substrate so there would be plywood no cement ditra thunder tile and nothing ever cracked but nobody was walking on it and it’s uncoupling membrane so if you get 85-90% down and notmiss big areas it doesn’t seem like it’s to bad since it wants to move a little anyway but I’ve alwaysback troweled my ditra makes install so much easier and get way more coverage
DIYTileGuy says
That’s not the way that it’s designed but it doesn’t mean that it won’t work. Ardex does have a version of their Flexbone uncoupling membrane that is designed to be floating (not stuck to the floor) but that’s the only one that I’m aware of.
Bruce says
This happened to me on the first few sheets. Always peel back the first sheet to make sure that the thinset is completely “soaking into” the fleece. When the thinset is too dry, it will not be absorbed properly by the fleece and when you peel it back you will see white areas. Make sure that you use enough water to make it drip from the trowel and yet stilll hold a trowel pattern on the floor. Then when you examine the fleece it will be soaking it in, as desired. Good luck!
Paul Moscardini says
How deep can the ditra membrane and wiring be embedded in concrete / thinset? I’ve got a difference in floor levels between two rooms of about 1/4 inch. I’d planned on installing the membrane with the wire and covering it with the proper cement then, as I lat in the tiles simply add a greater thickness of mastic between the tile and the ditra-wire-cement.
DIYTileGuy says
Your best bet is to level the floors first then install Ditra Heat. Another option is some of the heat membrane companies will allow CERTAIN self-levelers over the top of the membrane. Ardex is one company that makes both the membrane, Ardex Flexbone Heat, and the self leveler, Liquid Backer Board.
Not all self-levelers will work in this application, in fact, most won’t so you need to be clear on which products will work with others. But, if you only have one section that is 1/4 inch lower then the heat at the tile level shouldn’t be affected.
Also, you want to be sure to use thinset mortar and not pre-mixed mastic.
Paul says
I called schlutter and they said that I can simply make the layer of thinset above the mat thicker in order to reach the height needed to match the existing tile.
DIYTileGuy says
Great! The follow-up is appreciated.
Joe says
When running the lead wire from the membranes to the thermostat box, I have a lot of extra lead wire. Can I rim that and how do I deal with the cable sheathing?
DIYTileGuy says
Yes, you can trim it down. The sheathing just gets stripped down enough for the wire ends to show. It’s similar to wiring in a light switch or an outlet in that regard.
One cautionary note: The wire leads can be cut but the heated portion of the wire can’t be. I know this isn’t what you are asking about but just want to make it clear for anyone that may happen onto this comment.
Bruce says
What about routing heat side of cable thru a piece of plastic conduit in a wall to get to a shower bench. Directions say not to put heat cable through walls or it may over heat. Have u had any experiences with routing the heat cable thru a wall?
DIYTileGuy says
With heat cables, you can tell exactly where the transition from heated cable to wire takes place. It’s critical that the heated cable INCLUDING THE TRANSITION SECTION be fully embedded in mortar. I know Suntouch makes extensions if you need more wall cable. Other manufacturer’s might have extensions as well.
Tim says
Please help!
1. Modified or unmodified thinset to smooth over the ditra-heat mat?
2. Small mosaic marble tile going over the ditra-heat mat (with thinset smoothing coat), modified or unmodified to install this type of tile?
DIYTileGuy says
1. Schluter wants unmodified over the top unless it’s their own brand of thinset. Then it’s ok to use modified.
FYI, Schluter now has their own line of mortars and some are even modified. They say that they are “self curing”. The thing is that this self curing technology is not unique to them and has been available in other manufacturer’s mortars for some time now. This is the reason other mortar manufacturers have required modified over Schluter products. So going over Ditra with a modified mortar is probably not just ok, but could likely be a better installation. But I want to make it clear that it would void Schluter’s warranty.
2. Same answer as above with one caveat: Schluter has a 2 inch minimum tile size for going over their uncoupling membranes. The reason is because they are worried about point loads- too much pressure concentrated in one small spot. For a residential bathroom you may choose to take the risk but at least you’re informed enough to take the risk if you choose.
BCR says
When you’re prefilling you’re still using unmodified? That should be modified since it is going to air dry – not moisture cure.
DIYTileGuy says
You are correct to say that Schluter’s instructions want you to use unmodified on top of Ditra-Heat.
Brian S says
Does it help if the smaller tile (mine are 1.5”x1.5”) are in a connected matrix (total is 10”x12”).
DIYTileGuy says
Most of the small tiles are connected on some sort of mesh and that doesn’t sway Schluter from relaxing their requirements.
Pat McGroin says
Unmodified. You may get away with a modified if you use very small format tile and give a long curing period, outside of that. unmodified or your thinset will never cure.
DIYTileGuy says
Good comment!
Allan says
Not finding the info I need, and want to make sure I don’t screw up now…….help this poor sole!
1. Bathroom floor has 1/4 ” Hardiebacker attached with thin set and screws to plywood subfloor.
2. I will be putting Ditra Heat mat down to it.
3. I have 18″x18″ Porcelain Tile.
Not finding what thin set to use between Ditra and Hardiebacker. Modified or not???
I have Un-modified for the Tile to Ditra, but I may need special for the large Porcelain tiles?
I know Schluter wants unmodified between tile and Ditra, but what under Ditra to Hardiebacker?
Have both HD(for Custom products) and Lowe’s (Mapei) close by to purchase.
Any thing I am forgetting?
Thanks!
DIYTileGuy says
You can go with either modified or unmodified with the Hardibacker but I would push you towards modified. There’s too much riding on it with the wire and the tile to have something go wrong.
One thing about the unmodified mortars is that they tend to be the cheapest mortars available and they aren’t all created equal. I would encourage you to stay away from any thinset that is under $10. A good unmodified mortar for large tiles is what you want. I’m pretty sure Lowes carries something. If you have time to order Mapei Kerabond T from Lowes that would be what I recommend.
Independent Flooring installations says
Lowes in my area no longer carries the kerabond and hasn’t for about 3 years. I was having to special order it until I broke down and tried their Mapei uncoupling membrane mortar. This is advertised as a premium unmodified thinset mortar and costs about $15.00 per 50lb bag. I have used this now for 2 years without any issues and they also stock a latex admix if going over plywood.
DIYTileGuy says
Good to know. Thank you!
maureen says
I am trying to tile river rock on my bathroom wall. The stones are approximately 2″ x 3″ and anywhere from 1/2″ to 2″ thick. So some are pretty heavy and some are very light. At the store, they recommended to me to use TEC large stone mortar-latex modified. I am combing it to 1/4″. However, the stones are seriously sagging. I know I should work from the bottom up, but I am working around a mirror so I really do not want that as my bottom.
Do you have any suggestions for me? I would really appreciate it. It will really save my sanity. thank you!!
DIYTileGuy says
A lighter weight thinset may help but probably making the thinset to a thicker consistency would work the best.
Patrick says
You can use laticrete and you wont get the sag but its a out 45 a bag
sknight says
look for a medium bed unmodified thinset follow the instructions on the bag. lowes sells a mapei (large format unmodified) this is a decent medium bed motar that shouldnt slump for your install
Chris says
Why can’t prodeso be or ditra be glued down over hardwood?
DIYTileGuy says
Too much movement and too unstable. You can read Schluter’s comments about their feelings on hardwood floors here.
https://www.schluter.com/schluter-us/en_US/faq/ditra-ditraxl-over-hardwood-flooring
Serge says
I am planning to install Ditra-heat-tb over concrete in a bedroom and Ditra in hallway leading to that bedroom. The difference in height is 5mm or 3/16″. Is this going to be a problem? How do I transition? Thank you.
DIYTileGuy says
It would depend on what you are transitioning to. But typically people will use wood or metal profile reducers to go from a higher tile surface to a lower surface.
Serge says
It will be the same tile in the bedroom and in the hallway. I was hoping to get away without metal profile reducers by sloping the tile and make the transition from area with ditra-heat-tb to area with regular ditra invisible. Would sloping the tile work? Or I still should use the reducers? Thank you.
DIYTileGuy says
I didn’t realize that you were going to transition from Ditra-Heat TB to more Ditra. You might consider the following options:
-Running Ditra-Heat TB (now called Ditra-Heat Duo) throughout the whole installation and only heating one section of it.
-Using Ditra XL for the non-heated part. Ditra XL is the same thickness and is probably a little bit less expensive than Ditra-Heat Duo.
-Running regular Ditra-Heat mat (not Duo) in the non heated section. This is probably the most impractical of these three options.
If you still want to use 1/8 inch thick Ditra in the non heated section then you could transition with just a tile. If you were using, say wood plank tiles, then you could always run the plank a different direction at the doorway which is something often done with real wood flooring installations. You would have to angle the tile but it would still work.
Serge says
Is it okay to combine Ditra Heat Duo and Ditra XL within the same room? I figured using XL for the unheated areas would save me around 300$ over the whole basement project. Is it worth the trouble? Thank you.
DIYTileGuy says
It’s fine to combine the two. I’ve done the same thing.
Serge says
The floor near the wall is sloped up a little bit (starts about 6 inches from the wall). I am thinking to stop the Duo 6″ from the wall and fill the gap between Duo and the wall with regular Ditra (1/8″) and then skim coat over the Ditra to bring the level up to Duo. Will this work? Can I use polymer modified skim coat type mortar for this or unmodified thinset will be better?
Thank you very much for your advise..
DIYTileGuy says
That should work. I don’t think it would be recommended by the manufacturer but it’s definitely a way to solve the problem
sknight says
ditra XL will match up with ditra heat
John says
I am considering skim coating over Ditra Duo heat cables over concrete substrate. It could be 3 or 4 days before I start installing the tile. Will the skim coating crack or crumble when working on it to install the tile.
DIYTileGuy says
Yes, there will be small cracks and crumbling. This is fairly normal because there is a small amount of movement in the plastic before the tile is installed. As long as you clean and vacuum it well prior to installing tile then you should be fine.
John Safuser says
I am planning on installing Ditra heat in a bathroom. I wish to install a redundant heat wire(not connected at same time) in case the initial one fails at some point in the future. Can the heat wire be dual run right next to each other? Can the non powered backup wire cross over the live one? Please advise?
DIYTileGuy says
Unorthodox for sure but I’ll speculate: I don’t think it would be an issue to run a redundant heat wire nor cross over the real heat wire as long as only one or the other is working- and not both. However, crossing the wires could lead to an uneven floor and also leave the high wire exposed to potential damage.
That’s my speculation but this isn’t something that you should take people on the internet’s word for it. A call to Schluter’s tech line is advisable. 🙂
Corey says
Apparently I’m late to seeing this, but do not ever cross wires under tile. Also, have your second wire in a totally different area than the first.
DIYTileGuy says
Good tips. Yes!
Pat says
I realize that following the manufactures specs to use the Schluter Ditra membrane is recommended and the best option. I personally dislike Schluter mats in general so is it possible to not use the membrane at all and pour a self leveling layer over my wires instead of going through a triple layering process?
DIYTileGuy says
Yes. If you’re going over a wood subfloor then Ardex makes a product called Liquid Backer Board that works great for this purpose.
Otherwise, your supposed to use lath for reinforcement and Mapei makes a plastic lath that won’t cut into the electric wires. Then you have more options for self levelers by using that.
If your going over concrete then the self levelers doesn’t need reinforcement.
Alex says
Hi, I have installed my Ditra membrane and realized after the fact that it would be cool to have heated floor. Can I install heat cable on top of the regular Ditra membrane? Thanks for your help!
DIYTileGuy says
I don’t know whether Schluter would approve, or not. You would have to call their tech line to find out.
But I don’t see a reason that it wouldn’t work. I don’t think self leveling over it would be a good idea but you could probably coat it with thinset.
Here’s a little known and probably against the rules tip: before the days of Ditra-Heat some guys would slice the ridge part of the waffles on normal Ditra and stuff their wires in there.
But you didn’t hear that from here. ?
Alex says
Haha great, thanks a lot for your help!
John says
Just had this installed and the guys out down durock, then ditra heat mats, then put self leveling concrete on top of that, and finally the next day laid down stone. Is this a completely botched job? I stopped payment on their check…
DIYTileGuy says
Not necessarily.
I don’t think Schluter wants self leveling over the top but some self leveling companies will warranty the installation. But it depends on which brand, which product, and how it was applied.
If you can find out which product they used then you can contact the manufacturer and see what they say.
But there’s nothing wrong with Ditra Heat over cement board.
Alex says
Can I do like a stair pattern with my electric wire to go around curves of a shower base ?
Alex says
That is one notch each stair . So over, down, over, down over down
DIYTileGuy says
As long as you keep the spacing consistent you can run it how you want. Personally, I don’t care for stair-stepping and prefer to keep the lines running straight but it that’s more of a ocd thing than anything.
Rob says
Hello,
Im using prodeso heat membrane and it was mentioned to use an unmodified thinset on top of the membrane – but what is recccomended to use to adhere the membrane to a concrete basement bathroom floor that has been already levelled with self leveller? Modified or unmodified? Thank you 😉
DIYTileGuy says
I don’t know that Prodeso requires unmodified over the top. I’m almost positive that they don’t but I can’t seem to locate their install instructions online anywhere- including on their own website- which seems quite odd to me.
However, unmodifed should be ok over concrete but I hate encouraging anyone to use unmodified mortars as there are much better modified choices out there.
edit: Nuheat sells a relabeled version of Prodeso Heat membrane and they have installation instructions on their website. They mention both modified and unmodified are ok.
https://www.nuheat.com/products/heatingsystems/cable-membrane
Chris says
Hi
I have installed ditra heat with modified thinset. The heat cable was put down and the flooring guy installed unmodified thinset from mapei (kerabond) over the ditra and cable before starting the ceramic. It as been 48 hours since the thinset was installed and i notice this morning when i was walking on it that there was cracking sound. I puch down on the thinset over the round in the ditra and the thinset is caving in at mostly every round but over the chanel for the heat cable everthing seems ok. Is this normal?
DIYTileGuy says
This sounds normal. The crunching sounds and even thinset coming loose, especially in the centers, if something that happens with prefilling.
Working on it, kneeling on it, and putting pressure on certain areas can cause the mortar to come loose.
The loose areas should be removed prior to installing tile and should be refilled in the process of tiling.
Glen says
I put down Ditra Heat mat in a small bathroom and it adhered great to the subfloor(plywood) except for a 6″ spot near the wall. How can I fix this bubble and make it adhere without lifting the entire mat? The thinset has hardened. Installed 40 hours ago.
DIYTileGuy says
This happens sometimes and the fix if pretty easy. Cut the bubble out with a razor knife, lift out that bubble, and replace that section.
Pam says
Hi, and thank you for your wonderful blog. What is the “thinnest” heat plus uncoupling system you know of? I’m trying to stay close to adjacent floor height!
DIYTileGuy says
I think 1/4 inch is pretty standard and about as thin as you can get. Ditra Heat, Prodeso heat, Suntouch’s Heat Matrix (actually from MD Building products) are all about the same.
Julie says
I am thinking about DIY’ing the install of Ditra Heat Duo in my basement. I’ve read everything I can find on the process and watched endless videos. My fear is that I do something that may void the warranty.
Just read your comment re: prefilling the waffles. Sounds logical to me, two questions:
1.after this pre-fill dries does it not crack when walking about tiling the floor?
2. I am tiling over concrete and plan on concrete/modified/Ditra Duo/unmodified/tile. Should you use the unmodified to fill the waffles and then another unmodified to tile?
Thanks in advance!
Trying to save $3000 :))
DIYTileGuy says
Yes, prefilling can crack.
I’m not sure why you would want to use two different unmods above Ditra-Heat Duo. I would use whatever you are going to use to install the tile.
If you meant that you wanted to use modified to prefill then that’s fine. At least I’ve heard that Schluter doesn’t have a problem with that.
Congrats on saving $3000. This is what’s great about DIYing.
Dan says
Hey there, I’m probably a couple of months too late, but the ditra heat instructions specify unmodified thinset between the slab and membrane. Modified thinset cures by drying, and while a wood subfloor allows this, a slab does not. Hope this helps someone, anyways!
Alan Berezin says
Have you ever poured leveling compound over the Ditra Duo + wires directly? Schulter says ‘no, use thinset’. But my contractor didnt level the old floors before putting Ditra down.
Thanks for the great tips!
DIYTileGuy says
All self levelers are not created equal so it’s a matter of using the right product for the right application.
Ardex makes a leveler called Liquid Backer Board and they approve this product over their own Flexbone uncoupling membrane.
The idea of that it will last flat but doesn’t have so much strength that it grabs and curls the edges.
Other manufacturers probably have products that work similarly but this is a relatively new technology so your options may be limited.
Additionally, you’ll probably be in no man’s land as far as warranties go but it’s a way to solve a problem.
Alan Berezin says
Thanks. What primer do you use for Ardex Liquid Backer Board over Ditra?
DIYTileGuy says
I don’t believe a primer is needed for going over uncoupling membranes but, again, this is where reading the most current and up-to-date instructions is advisable as things can change without notice.
Corey says
Sweet baby Jesus
Please tell me you are kidding about not understanding why you do not skim out the ditra heat/duo and let it dry ahead of time (if you are going to boast about NTCA and CTEF, please stop persuading tile installers to take shortcuts) . You want ONE coat of mortar between heat wire/ditra mat and tile. That way the heat is as efficient as possible. Having one layer, letting it dry, and adding another one is asking for it. This is not correct. Basic heat, tile/masonry knowledge, and why they do not say to do this. While you should definitely skim in the ditra as you are setting it (duh), do not let it dry before installing over it.
As far as your chalk line situation, you can use sharpie or hairspray over a chalk line to preserve it.
I agree with not tiling over the ditra immediately and always apply any kind of ditra underlayment a day prior to installation.
As far as being worried about having to pick up tiles and the mat with it because of needing to add mortar, the answer is simple: you should always prep any surface you are going to tile (floors or walls) completely before you start setting tile. A rookie mistake that can lead to mistakes and headache that no one wants.
Also, I know this will sound crazy, but you don’t have to use schluter products to install a quality tile project. And honestly, chances are, if you are using schluter shower systems, you don’t really know what you are doing. Some Ditra products are convenient and make things in the right situation, but always ask if your tile installer is capable of doing the project without any Ditra products. Their reaction will tell you how much they really know.
Don’t want to sound harsh, but I hate bad practices being passed around in our industry. I’m always learning as well and hope this helps!
Cheers to you also choosing such a tedious and maticulous trade!
DIYTileGuy says
I’ve heard your arguments but you haven’t changed my mind. Ditraheat will heat two layers that are the same thickness just fine.
Additionally, your comments about prepping the surface are correct but still doesn’t mean that a tile won’t have to be installed, picked back up, and reinstalled.
It’s important to keep in mind that this blog is aimed at the DIYer who is going to have a more difficult time doing perfect prep work. This would, therefore, increase the chances of having to pick tiles up after they’ve been set.
I feel it’s more important to protect the wire than to worry about any alleged heat inefficiencies.
As always, my opinion. ?
Alan Berezin says
What about floating floors above Ditra-Duo/Nuheat. Do you thinset down the wires and float the LVP above it? Ive have read/heard so many strategies. Among them:
1) Ditra+wires then thinset then tile is the only really good combo.
2) Ditra+wires then thinset then laminate or LVP (floating?) will work but unlikely mfg will approve it.
3) Ditra+wires then thinset then only solid hardwood (floating?) because heat might delaminate engineered hardwood glue for top layer and cause similar problems with other products.
4) Ditra+wires then thinset then gemcore (floating?) or other ~70 stone product which is approved for at least hydronic heat. But need very level floor which I dont have and which is hard to level for other reasons.
From Schluter:
——–
Schluter®-Systems currently only recommends the installation of ceramic, porcelain or natural stone tile over the DITRA-HEAT system.
thx
Alan
DIYTileGuy says
I’ve only installed tile over DitraHeat. I’ve never installed LVT or anything else.
Would it work? I think it’s conceivable but I don’t know how to accomplish it.
You might try to contact some of the other manufacturers such as Suntouch or Nuheat. They both have wire and membrane systems that compete with DitraHeat and may have guidance for non-tile floors.
Brad says
Schluter has a Technical Bulletin published that describes how they poured a self leveller over the ditra heat to a level of approximately 1/4” above the waffles and the they installed either wpc, lvt, lvp, and spc . They list the heat ranges that can be used with each as well as surface temperatures that can be expected.
Pam says
You’ve already helped me a lot, thank you in advance for this question! I plan to prefill the ditra heat mat with a modified, then apply the tile with ditraset. My questions are:
1) when you have to pull up a 12×24″ tile to check for coverage etc., do you find that the suction pulls a lot of the dried prefilled mortar out of the mat?
2) do you feel like a highly modified mortar would be less likely to be pulled out of the mat in the above scenario, vs a lightly modified one like ultraflex 1?
2) how loose or wet do you mix your prefill mortar? Seems like wetter would be better.
DIYTileGuy says
Yes, pulling up tile will pull out little chunks of mortar. I haven’t found a good combination to prevent this. When prefilling, normal tile mortar probably works the best but I usually use what I have left over from sticking the mat down and that mortar is wetter than normal. Bottom line is that I don’t think it matters that much.
Ken says
I’ve laid Ditra Heat membrane over plywood and OSB a couple times and was always given Mapei UltraFlex 1 by the tile store. Mapei UltraFlex 1 does meet or exceed ANSI 118.11 requirements. I’ve never had a problem securing the membrane, but I often wonder if I should be using something with more adhesion?
DIYTileGuy says
This product is fine. The ANSI 118.11 is the test for plywood adhesion and so it’s suitable for use over plywood. Personally, I like to work with premium products so I typically would go with UltraFlex 2 as a minimum. But there’s nothing wrong with UltraFlex 1 for the application that you are referring to.
Daniel says
I am installing the HeatMatrix uncoupling membrane mat by suntouch. To also use their heating wire system (Home Depot has it on Special Buy right now).
We also dropped the floor in the shower for a curbless/seamless entry into the show and are sloping into a linear drain. My plan was to run the uncoupling membrane into the shower for heat in the shower also (floor heat is rated/approved for shower floor application). On top of the this I was going to use a Kerdi-type membrane over the uncoupling membrane and up the shower walls as I don’t fully trust just the uncoupling membrane for water proof barrier. I would be prefilling the uncoupling membrane for ease of laying the Kerdi.
Super excited about our linear drain from [the online store] and how the kerdi is attached to the top of the drain already for seamless waterproofing.
any thoughts/concerns/words of wisdom for me? Reading your blog and comments has been very helpful so far in planning. Thanks.
DIYTileGuy says
You’re smart not to rely on the uncoupling membrane above for that application. Kerdi over the top is the way to do it.
Thanks for your comments
Jenna says
I’ve seen some comments and feedback about the Ditra Heat Duo (TB) creating a hollow sound upon finishing an install. Any thoughts or comments on that topic? I don’t know if they prefilled waffles and let it dry or not.
Thanks!
DIYTileGuy says
It can sound a little bit hollow.
Ian White says
Hi,
I am installing ditra heat over the top of a self leveling compound in a bathroom and was wondering about a few things you would suggest for the process to make it go as seamless as possible? First is that I’m asssuming that i need to use the Ditra Duo since it needs to have the thermal break between the new concrete floor and the Heating, is this correct? also would I just skim coat the Compound when setting the mat onto the floor? Lastly should i use a modified thinset for the concrete to ditra mat contact to ensure that it is stable for its lifetime?
DIYTileGuy says
Ditra-Heat Duo would be the best membrane for that. I believe they recommend an unmodified mortar for that application but you should confirm that prior to installing.
afunkygirl says
My installer put the Ditra heat down per the specifications over my existing concrete floors and filled the waffles with thin set. It turns out my floors are running downhill and are out of level by up to 1 1/2″ or more. (I did have to do a foundation repair and put in piers 3 years ago so makes sense.) The contractor poured Level Quick over the top of the Ditra Heat to level it out. Do you think the heat will come thru the top of the tiles now that it has almost 2 inches of material over the heating cable?! Thanks. May be too late, but hopefully I can sleep tonight!
DIYTileGuy says
I’d be concerned about this and there’s more than one reason. Firstly, while there are a couple of different self-levelers that are OK for this application, I don’t believe that Level Quick is one of them. That’s not a statement about Level Quick’s quality but simply using the right products for the right application. So that’s issue #1.
Issue #2 is just what you’ve described in that you are now having to heat up more concrete than necessary. Along with this is the fact that it’s different depths so that it will heat unevenly and, yes, it could be warmer and colder in spots because of this.
Tying into this is issue #3 which is that it doesn’t sound like there was any kind of thermal break or insulation installed so that you are heating as little of the concrete subfloor as you can while heating as much of the tile as possible. In other words, there’s nothing to stop the heat from traveling down into the ground.
The way that your floor should have been built would have been to do the leveling first, then use Ditra Heat Duo, then tile. In this scenario, Level Quick is a perfectly acceptable product. Used over Ditra Heat it isn’t.
So it doesn’t sound like your installer really understands the products that they are using and the proper way to use them. Unfortunately, this will probably not have good results.
Sam says
Hi Guys great site. I am Installing ditra heat in my Bathroom. I want to
Keep the floor level with the hallway as it was before. What is the thinnest mortars in each step. I have been looking online and can’t find the answer or suggestion. Basically I have my ditra heat 1/8 inch. Then what I have left is 1/2 inch to match the height in the hallway. Can i put 1/8 thinset to install the ditra heat to the plywood and then 1/8 between the tile and ditra? My tiles are 2” x 6” netted and about 1-4 inch thick, so it has about 6 to a net. Also difference between using a square notch vs a triangle notch?
DIYTileGuy says
I don’t think this is something that you want to do with mortar. Your Ditra-Heat should be more like 1/4 inch. If you need to add height then your best bet is to add 1/4 inch Hardibacker or cement board to the floor. If that’s too high then I think Schluter will OK 1/8 inch Ditra underneath Ditra-Heat. You’ll want to verify that with Schluter.
You might also look into Ditra-Heat Duo which should be slighly thicker than Ditra-Heat.
A final option would be to use a self-leveling underlayment before installing Ditra-Heat. This can be challenging for a DIYer and, if you are installing over a wood subfloor, you’ll need to use a product like Ardex Liquid Backer Board. If it’s a concrete floor then you have a lot more self-leveling options.
Steve Bruns says
We are installing Suntouch flooring with Heatmatrix uncoupling membrane. Is Goboard an acceptable subfloor for under Heatmatrix?
DIYTileGuy says
GoBoard would work fine underneath the heat wire and would make a pretty decent insulator, I would think.
Terrance Haviland says
I have a job coming up that requires a heated floor in a few bathrooms. I was going to use the Ditra-Heat but realized that the tile they selected was .6 inch mosaic! What do you think might be a good solution ? Go with the Ditra-Heat and cover the whole system with thinset and 1/4 inch cbu to try to get back to a solid substrate for the mosaic? Use some kind of leveler over the Ditra-Heat to get a smooth, competent surface for that tiny mosaic? Or perhaps some other system al together. Any advice would be helpful The floors already have 1/2 inch cbu glued and screwed.
DIYTileGuy says
The best way to do it from here would probably be to use a premade NuHeat mat or one of the cut & turn mats installed directly over the cement board. Then coat it with a self-leveling product.
Another option would be to install 1/4 inch Wedi board, cut channels for a wire with a router, embed the wire, then install thinset and mesh tape over the wires. Wedi will approve this installation but you’ll want to read the instructions for doing so prior to the installation.
Judy says
I’m wanting to do a large area with wood look tile into kitchen/hall/laundry room. The question I have is this, can I use the detra heat may in front of my sink and stove but no where else. That being said can I use the other mats that are not for the heating wires be used in the same room? Are the two different types of matting the same height? I just don’t see the point of hearing a very large floor when I’ll only be standing in front of the sink stove and counter while making meals.
DIYTileGuy says
Ditra Heat mat is about 1/4 inch thick. What you can do is run that mat everywhere but only heat the parts that you want. Alternatively, you could use Ditra-Heat mat only where you want to heat but I would recommend another similar height tile underlayment to use with it. Whether you use Ditra XL, 1/4 inch Hardibacker, or whatever is up to you. But I wouldn’t switch to another thinner mat like Ditra and run it right next to it.
Shelly says
Hi there, what a fantastic source of very knowledgeable and generous info. Thank you! I will save your site to read at my leisure 🙂
Sorry if this is the wrong post to ask my question but l cannot see a search for option.
I want to grout my fireplace tiles. I rang Mapei to check if l can use what l already have, which us a bag of Mapei Flexible Wall and Floor Grout CG2WA (Black) lt says on the packet suitable for floor heating.. He said yes that’s fine for fireplaces, but having looked at their website PDF’s l cannot see it as listed for fireplaces. They have several others for moderate heat and higher heat so I’m a bit worried about using it and ruining all my hardwork.
Can you clarify or recommend a black coloured grout l can use please?
Thank you 🙂
Shelly
DIYTileGuy says
For a black grout, I would use Mapei Ultracolor if that will work for your application. Raven is their black, I believe. I’ve never heard of the product that you mention and don’t know how it would behave.
Kelly Williams says
Ive installed Prodeso mat over 1/4″ Hardiboard. It is stuck well over 95% of the area. There are a few edges that are not. Can I tack these down and continue tiling? The loose areas ore only one square wide.
thanks!
DIYTileGuy says
If they are loose you can always cut out the loose sections and replace with new product. I suppose you could always add more adhesive underneath them and weight the edges down until the bond and dry. That would be another way to get there.
Bethany says
Thank you for your site! I am planning to tile over cement slab, 1200 sf, using Ditra Heat in certain areas and a Ditra membrane throughout. Was researching Ditra Duo but appreciate reading the suggestion that I might use Ditra XL in the non-heated areas to maintain the same membrane thickness at less cost. Could there be any reason to think that the thermal break on Ditra Duo might make my unheated tiles any less cold vs. installed over Ditra XL? I haven’t read that claim made anywhere, and I know the idea is reducing heat loss to the cement. Just wondering if Ditra Duo might in theory also reduce coldness from the cement to the tile vs. another Ditra product?
DIYTileGuy says
I suppose it could but I really think you’d be better off installing a foam board or other type of insulation. The little bit of feedback that I’ve received about Ditra Heat Duo is that it might not be as helpful as you would think as an insulator. I have no doubt that it’s better than normal Ditra Heat but I still think insulation of some sort would be a better way to go. Either foam board like Wedi, or Kerdi board, or even a foam underlayment like QEP makes.
Mark says
I am caught between two tile contractor experts, regarding installation of DITRA on a sunroom’s concrete slab floor with in-floor heating (in the slab, not on top). One says use DITRA to avoid cracking tile if the slab moves (hard for me to imagine that happening). The other says to not use it because it will interfere with the floors ability to heat. Thoughts?
Nick says
I noticed in your picture you run a two lug gap instead of three. Any reason when schluter recommends a three lug gap?
DIYTileGuy says
I’m not sure why Schluter recommends the spacing they do. I use a Suntouch wire and they are OK with spacing down to 2-inch.
Alan Pultz says
1,000 SF on concrete slab. A couple questions:
1. DITRA Heat Membrane is expensive!!!! For areas not heated can I use backer board or durock instead of the membrane… it’s a lot cheaper. Or bite the bullet and go with XL?
2. I have the option of going 240 or 120… seems like I can cover a lot more area and eliminate a couple thermostats to help reduce cost.
3. Plan was to cover walkways and room centers – how far does the heat radiate from the normal pattern?
DIYTileGuy says
These are good questions. With a concrete subfloor you won’t be able to install cement board or Hardibacker over it as it’s not an approved substrate for that application. You can use Ditra XL where it’s not heated. You can also use 1/4 inch foam board like Wedi board, or you can use a self-leveler. The self-leveler might be a good bet but they can be tricky to use.
I would go with 240 over concrete if you can. Heat does not radiate very far. Maybe 1-inch?
Here’s something to consider: with a concrete subfloor, you want the heat to travel up rather than down. But if the wires are installed directly on top of the concrete then there really is nothing stopping the wire from heating downward. So you are then heating up the entire slab and the tile floor and that takes a lot of energy.
Schluter has a membrane called Ditra-Heat Duo that is supposed to address this. The one floor that I used it on, a small bathroom floor, the results weren’t overwhelming.
In the future, when I run into this, I’ll figure on installing a 1/4 inch foam board over the concrete with heating wires on top or maybe think about using a cork insulation under the wires. I believe QEP makes cork underlayment for this purpose.
ALAN PULTZ says
Electrical questions for DITRA Heat. Each of my rooms already has wiring from electric baseboard heating that I have not used in years. Each room is connected to a Two Pole 20A breaker. Voltage reading is 247V. My concern is it appears that the wire size is 12 gauge, not 10 gauge as I thought it would be. I thought I saw someplace else that 12 gauge would be sufficient. I believe I would rather use the 230 option versus the 120V option due to less “current”.
So… with 12 gauge wiring… should I replace the breakers with 20A single pole and use the 120V system, or do you think I would be okay using he existing two pole 20A breakers on the 230V system. Gut tells me that the 20A rating is the key.
DIYTileGuy says
I don’t know the answer to this. I always lean on the electrical contractors that I use to make sure the wiring is sufficient. Sorry.
Andy says
Just wondering, what mortar consistency do you recommend for the waffle prefill coat? The base coat adhering the Ditra to the substrate should be rather thin and the tile setting mortar should be much thicker – more like the former or the latter?
DIYTileGuy says
I use whatever is left from installing the mat. If I make up more then I would mix it thicker like normal thinset mortar would be
Ryan says
If I had done more research first, I would have the right products for the job, but…
I have the Suntouch TapeMat and Ditra XL and 6″ x 24″ wood look tiles for my 30 sq ft bathroom floor. will be on a plywood substrate. In the Schluter handbook, it says to use All-set then the TapeMat, then all-set, then dirtra xl then all-set then tile. I want to confirm a few things. First, the floor is not level, by only about 1/4″. Do I need to use a leveling compound first? I already purchased Level-Quick (which seems to be the wrong choice from the things I’ve read) Second, from what I understand, I should level the floor, let it set up. Next day, put down the TapeMat, and skim coat All-Set (also, already purchased) and then lay down the Ditra XL, then let that set-up?? or keep going with All-Set over the Ditra XL and Tile right away?
If I don’t need to level out that 1/4″, do I Still need a cured Mortar base under the TapeMat? If I do use the LevelQuick first, there would be a section that would still be plywood….
also , I need to match all this up to my 3/4″ hardwood flooring at the entryway/door.
any advice is much appreciated!
I have acquired a ton a respect for anyone in the Tiling Trade, it may be one of the most meticulous. with far too many ways of doing the same thing.
DIYTileGuy says
I’d say you have some decisions to make.
I don’t think you can do it the way you want and have it match up with the hardwood. So, something has to give.
The floor should be leveled up before installing the mat. Don’t use Levelquick to do that. I would take a look at Planipatch which can be purchased from Lowes, or other retailers that sell Mapei products. I think Home Depot has a version from Henry’s but I don’t have any experience with it.
Then you can install the rest of it like you said. Personally, I’d rather see you use Ditra-Heat instead XL and the tape mat.
But I think, no matter what, you’ll have to change it out to regular Ditra to have a shot at matching heights with the hardwood
Jen says
Can you take the wire out of the heat mat and embed it in the Ditra Heat? Any issues with that? LOVE reading these comments. I’m learning so much!
DIYTileGuy says
I would think so. Especially if it’s one of the cut & turn types. If it’s in a mat, like some of the Nuheat ones are, then you might call and check with them and see if the matting has any function besides just holding the wires in place. But I don’t think that it does.
Chelsea says
I have a 1800s house. I am about to pull up the 3 layers of flooring. I know there is a subfloor over the pumpkin pine that i will keep. I don’t think it is 100% level, but close. Do i need to use a Hardie board first with this ditra mats when installing heating and using 8″x36″ tile?
DIYTileGuy says
A home built in the 1800’s likely won’t be straightforward like a more modern home would be. You’ll need to familiarize yourself with the Ditra Handbook which is an excellent tool because it contains so many different subfloor scenarios.
But for a home that is that old, you’ll have to start with “Are my joists strong enough to support a tile floor?”. I would start with the deflection calculator over on the John Bridge forum to figure that out. After that, the Ditra Handbook should be able to guide you the rest of the way.
Dan says
What is your opinion on running the heat on steps? I am using the HeatMatrix for a entry way that then drops down two steps into a short hallway.
Thanks
DIYTileGuy says
Thumbs up!
Garth Gibbs says
Hot glue gun to hold heat cable in place, so when you lay down the thinset, and pick up the tile to check surface contact, the wires will remain in place.
DIYTileGuy says
That’s one way around it!
Bryan Marable says
I placed my Ditra heat wire 2 studs a part. After reading all the directions I’m not sure how I missed that Ditra Heat wire must be placed 3 studs – I placed them 2 studs (probably should have had my wife read the directions). Can you advise what problems this is going to cause and have I just destroyed my chances of having heated floors? The tile job is finished so it is what it is but I’m looking for some info on whether I shouldn’t use it now.
DIYTileGuy says
I think you’re fine. You’ll forego the warranty from Schluter for not following their instructions but you’ll also have a nice warm floor. I don’t know why Schluter insists on 3 lugs but they’re the only ones that do, to my knowledge.
xavier says
hi
I need your advice. I filled the waffles of my ditra heat membrane with unmodified thinset, and directly installed a kerdi membrane onto it, then let it dry a week. Is is nicely bond on the ditra, but I notice some voids when I push my finger on some areas.
what Do you advice among those solutions :
1/ to peel off the kerdi, refill all the voids with unmodified thinset then glue a new kerdi on it with liquid form thinset
2/ peel off the kerdi, refill all the voids with unmodified thinset, let it dry, and aftewards paint liquid membrane on it.
3/ do nothing, let it so, it will be ok
I can show you a photo of my problem.
xavier says
some precision : I installed a Schluter heating wire on the ditra Heat membrane, and why did I install a kerdi on the ditra, it’s because I read that Schluter recommends it for a shower area. The ditra heat membrane is glued on a concrete, with modified thinset.
thanks a lot
DIYTileGuy says
Thanks for the clarification.
DIYTileGuy says
If the waterproofing is essential, and not simply something that’s overkill, then I would do #1 in your options.
xavier says
great, thanks for your comment. I’ll try it.
Mike DeSimone says
I installed some plywood sheets over my bath subfloor in hope of a cleaner DITRA-HEAT install. I noticed a low spot ‘valley’ so I tried to screed some unmodified thin-set left over from the KERDI shower install on the low spot to try and build it up. After reading the Schluter guide again and realizing I now have to use Modified thin-set to install the mat, can I put the modified over the are where I used unmodified?
DIYTileGuy says
I think the unmodified is going to be trouble. You want a A118.11 mortar for going over plywood. It should have that number on the label for the bag.
Mike D says
I have mapei ultraflex 2 for the DITRA mat but I had feared the worst. I initially wanted to put down the self-leveler on the subfloor under the plywood, but when I put the primer down it leaked through some unseen nail holes and joints, so I got discouraged. My ‘low spot’ is only about an 1/8-3/16″ low, so I think I will pull up the plywood, either flip it over or replace and may be try the leveler again on the subfloor beneath the plywood. Thanks for the prompt reply and keep up the good work, this is a great resource and I will be on to your tiling section next!
DIYTileGuy says
Thanks! You’ve got to plug the holes in plywood otherwise it will leak through. I just published a post on self-leveling if you are interested. It’s right on the front page and it’s a long one.
Mike D says
Hi again,
You may have already posted this but I just want to be clear. I redid all my mistakes and now have ‘flat’ plywood. I plan to lay DITRA-HEAT over this plywood, using modified Mapei UltraFlex 2 for the DITRA-HEAT mat. Did say that I can fill the mat cavities (with heat wire) with my leftover modified thin-set? And if so, after it dries, I can then use unmodified thin-set for my oversized porcelain tile on top of the cavities filled with modified?
thanks,
DIYTileGuy says
Yes, it’s fine to do it that way.
Dan says
Hi,
I’ve done several DItra heat systems over concrete but this particular job is a mess. The floor is so bad that 6 bags of floor leveler (for 165 SF) didn’t fix it all. I set the mesh and cable but when I started tiling there were still huge (1/4″ +) gaps under the 6×36 plank tiles. I was worried about cracking so I pulled them up and tried to level with thinset. The client didnt like it and asked if there was another type of flooring that could be placed over the heat system? Of course, Schluter says no.
Just curious is you know of anyone who has tried this? TIA
DIYTileGuy says
Over only installed tile over heat but I’m pretty sure that other manufacturers will allow for other materials over the heat. You might look up some of their instructions and try to follow them.
Ken Alan Brewer says
Hello
I bought ⅝” honed marble tiles on a mesh background several months ago and decided I wanted heated floors under them. I was told that the tiles are too small for this system. The tiles are 7/16 “ thick and it’s a small bathroom. 30 square feet and doesn’t get a lot of traffic. If I did a thicker motor set over the membrane that holds the wire do you think I can get away with using these tiles? Have my heart set on heated floors. And can’t and don’t want to return the tiles. Thanks for the info.
DIYTileGuy says
The issue is that the tile size is under the minimum size for Ditra-Heat mat. You can still heat the floor if you want but not use the Ditra-Heat system (or any other uncoupling membrane heat system).
Nuheat makes heat mats [affiliate link. Privacy policy] that are already sized and might be easier to install if you have a room where their standard size mats work. You can also have them make you a custom-sized mat.
Alternatively, you can run the heat wires over the floor and self-level over them. This is the option I would go with.
I should add that you need a very flat floor for 5/8 inch marble tile to look good. So even with a Nuheat mat, I think you are going to need to self-level over whichever heat system that you opt to use.
Ken Alan Brewer says
Thanks so much for the information!! And speedy too!
Appreciated your insight. Would I use just the same wire as the ditra system use ?
DIYTileGuy says
You can but I’d probably go with a different one if you aren’t using Ditra-Heat membrane. Unless you already have the wire and can’t return it. I like Suntouch Warmwire and Nuheat has a good one too. They are probably cheaper than Ditra-Heat wire.