You’ve hired someone to build your tile shower in your bathroom, but how do you know he or she’s doing it correctly? How do you know that you won’t have an upstairs shower leaking into your downstairs kitchen?
Most homeowners don’t know all the ins and outs of remodeling their bathrooms. Sadly, the contractors they’ve hired don’t always know either, or worse, they simply don’t do it right!
After all, the last thing that you want to do is pay for a brand new bathroom with a shower leaking into the wall.
Estimated reading time: 5 minutes
What to look for in proper tile shower construction
This post will arm you with a few things to look for so that you can monitor the construction and waterproofing of your shower while it’s being built.
This post covers traditional shower construction which is still the most common method for building a shower.
Want to know more about what a traditionally constructed shower is? Read this post:
Shower Waterproofing Crash Course
5 common mistakes that could leave you with a shower leaking from day one
1. Cutting, rather than folding, the corners on a shower liner
Why cut the shower liner if you don’t have to? When dealing with the inside corners of a shower the corners of the liner should be folded rather than cut.
However, an outside corner will need to be cut. Read down further to see how to address this.
It is possible to cut the corners, patch them properly, and have it not leak. How do you know if you have a leaking shower? See number 5.
2. Shower liner doesn’t go over curb or isn’t high enough
Most of the problems in this regard have to deal with how the curb is waterproofed.
The shower pan liner is supposed to go up the wall 3 inches above the framing of the curb according to Tile Council of North America (TCNA) standards. It also needs to go up and over the curb to the non-wet area (the front of the curb).
Where it gets tricky is at the corners of the curb because you normally have to cut it to get it to fold over the framing.
The shower pan companies make pre-formed corners for just this purpose. Make sure you, or your installer, use them. This is one of the most common causes of a leaking shower.
If your curb looks like the top photo, that’s not good.
3. Nails too low in shower
What good does it do to install shower pan liner 3″ above the curb if you then nail below the curb level? If you see nails below the curb level in the shower, it’s time to look for another tile setter.
Keep in mind, this applies to traditional shower construction. If your shower is being built with products like Schluter Kerdi, this won’t apply.
However, if you are doing a mud pan with a liner underneath the mud, nailing below the curb level is a no-no.
In regards to the curb, there should be no nails or penetrations of any kind on the inside or top of the curb. Nails, staples, or glue can be used to attach the liner to the front of the curb (the side that doesn’t get wet).
4. Using cement board on the curb
Using cement board on the top and/or inside of the curb is just a bad idea. How do they plan on attaching the cement board to the curb? With nails or screws that go through the waterproof liner?
The proper way to do it is with metal lath and a sand/cement mix- the same thing the shower pan is supposed to be made out of.
5. No flood test
While this doesn’t cause shower leaking it certainly will tell you whether you have a leak or not. A flood test is when you plug the drain and fill the shower up with water to just below the top of the curb.
Flood testing a shower pan: Why it’s done and how to do it
With the drain plugged the water has nowhere to go unless there are holes or penetrations in the liner.
If you have a leak anywhere, you will know before it gets tiled. Put a mark on the wall and wait 24 hours. If the water is lower than the mark then you have a shower leaking somewhere.
Insist on a flood test. Write it into the contract if necessary.
These tips can help homeowners and contractors to identify if their shower is being built incorrectly.
Obviously, it’s better to know if there’s a leak at this point than to find out it leaks after it’s tiled and the shower glass is in. It’s also nice to know that it doesn’t leak before everyone gets paid.
To learn more about proper waterproofing see my post:
Shower Waterproofing Crash Course
For other poor ways to build a shower see my post:
Ok… so my contractor has done most of these things. We haven’t tiled yet but here is what concerns me:
1. Liner is cut to go over the curb, rather than folded or using preformed corners
2. Curb is cement board… screwed into the the 2×4’s underneath (and through the liner of course)
In this case, do I need a secondary water barrier installed over the curb and corners (like Laticrete)?
Hi Joel, this is a problem. I’m curious what the contractor’s plan was from here. Your shower is built incorrectly and in a way that it will leak. It’s possible putting a liquid waterproofing over the curb will keep it from leaking but what happens if it doesn’t? Will the contractor come back to fix it? or will you be stuck with a leaking shower? I can tell you that no manufacturer will warranty the installation.
You’re very fortunate that it hasn’t been tiled yet. It’s fairly easy to backtrack and build it correctly. What I wonder is if the contractor even knows how to do it correctly. I would advise getting someone else in there to do the prep on the shower correctly and make sure it’s flood tested before moving forward.
I just had a thought: You could probably remove the cement board on the curb and glue on another piece of the liner over the curb section. Glue it right to the existing liner on the curb, install the preformed corners, flood test it, and then install the wire lath and mud pan.
Assuming the flood test is a success, when you go to drain the water make sure you see the water drain all the way down the drain. This will tell you that the weep holes in the drain are working. If everything looks good, put some pea gravel around the weep holes on the drain and move forward. I still have concerns about the installer though.
I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any more questions.
I live in small town USA and none of the stores here sell preformed curb corners. Can you walk me through folding the liner over and around the curb?
Thank you
Carl
Hi Carl,
The easiest way to explain it is in pictures and I don’t think my site will allow me to post photos in the comments section. However, I have demonstrated this before on the John Bridge Forum. Here’s a link to the post with photos.
https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1164491&postcount=458
This is my preferred way of doing it with no cuts but some people have reported difficulty with it. I typically use 30 mil liners as opposed to the thicker and more widely available 40 mil.
Also on the JBF is a tutorial on how to install liners in general which you may find helpful.
https://www.johnbridge.com/how-to/shower-pan-liner-installation/
Let me know if those links don’t answer your question.
A contractor performed a major remodel to a bathroom and it was completed 4 months ago. The shower was enlarged, and a new curb was built out of concrete. The contractor said he built the shower liner into the curb. We can see the liner on one side when we cut away Sheetrock from the garage. But when we removed a few pieces of tile in top of the curb that is adjacent to that wall, The liner is not there. The contractor said he built the liner into the curb. Is this a problem? We are trying to determine the cause of water damage to the master bedroom floors. Thank you.
Kendal,
This is a good question. The curb should be built out of cement. If you see cement board, or similar, that’s a bad sign. If you see screws or nail heads- that’s not good either. It sounds like the liner is probably inside the cement which is good. However, that still doesn’t mean that it’s properly installed. Did the contractor wrap the liner all the way over the curb? or does it only go halfway over of the top of the curb? Did he patch the corners of the liner where the curb meets the wall or simply cut it like in the lead photo? Does the liner extend higher than the curb itself?
There’s a good chance the water that you are seeing is coming from the shower. I would take a lot of photos of the tile removal to document how the shower was built. The odds are that at least something was done wrong.
Feel free to leave an update on this situation. I’m curious how it gets resolved.
We just had a marble tile shower installed, second floor of an 80 yr old house. There are several reason why we got concerned, so we asked the contractor, and insulted he walked off the job 2 days ago. By your description, he seems to have done the pan correctly using membrane and folding and using some staples but above 12 inches. He poured a concrete pan, then membrane, then more cement (mortar?) up to the drain. But the drain wasn’t level and the curb was too wide, so a day after it was poured, he chipped away some of the cement to straighten “the adjustable drain cover” he said, and then he chipped away about 1/4 inch of the curb inside shower side the 5ft length of the shower. My question is: will all that chipping after pouring the pan cause cracks and leaks in the future? He did the floor test after first pour of cement and lining with membrane. (Our dog came in and drank at least a cup of water that night and the next day he couldn’t even tell… so if you had a slow leak of a cup a day, you couldn’t tell from a flood test and eventually wouldn’t you see water damage?}.
Hi Cori
This is a tough one because it’s hard to know what was done. When you say “He poured a concrete pan, then membrane, then more cement (mortar?) up to the drain.” This is a good thing. I can’t tell you how many showers don’t even make it to this point.
I’m not sure what it means that the “drain wasn’t level.” But, regardless, the contractor probably didn’t hurt the liner by chipping a little bit around the top of the drain.
I’m not sure why the curb had to be made smaller? It’s not unusual to have a 5 inch wide curb when the mudwork is complete. If it was supposed to be smaller this should be discussed ahead of time. It’s hard to know if the liner was damaged during the cutting process. It just depends on how deeply it was cut back.
In regards to the flood test, I know of three ways to check the water level: Some guys make a mark on the wall at the water level, some guys measure (my preference), some build some sort of contraption that is just below the water level with the idea that it will protrude if the water level drops.
For the water level to drop enough to register with any of these methods, it would need to leak at least a half gallon- which might drop the water level 1/16th of an inch.
The only way to get a cup of water loss to register would be to extend the flood test to 48 or more hours.
Like I said at the beginning, this is a tough one. My instincts say that the contractor is aware of the proper steps and is doing each step. Whether or not he’s performing each step correctly is what is impossible for me to tell. Hopefully you’ve hired someone that you trust to complete the steps properly.
I recommend Roger at FLOORELF.COM for advice and his eyes books.
Go the topical drain and either KERDI or HYDROBAN way.
He should have explained, first of all, why porcelain TILE that looks like marble would have been the way to go. Stone absorbs water. Have pro stone sealers on speed dial and. keep a dehumidifier going.
Nice post. Maybe you could add in the dam corners as a graphic. Here in Vancouver the only place to get them is from me. Sadly no plumbing wholesaler or box store feel they are needed.
No wonder so many showers leak from day one.
Just ripped out another that had the rubber liner set with yellow ABS solvent! What a gong show.
Hi, I wanted to run a question by you regarding a redgard shower installation I am doing. I used Hardibacker on the walls, 3 2×4’s with cement board for the curb, and a shower pan poured with type S mortar, highly compacted and having excellent slope to a 2-piece drain.
I then put two layers of redgard everywhere, and an additional layer on the shower pan and wall up to about 6″. I used fiberglass tape at the seams where the walls and curb meet the pan, and also where the pan meets the drain. The redgard goes all the way up to the weep holes but doesn’t cover any of them.
I did a leak test and didn’t see any evidence of leaking at all, so I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t leak or have any issues.
I proceeded to install 2″ travertine tiles, the ones backed by mesh. This is where the problem begins: I was having a hard time getting one of the tiles level with its neighbors, so I took a cutter and started to cut the tile out of the mesh! :O
I caught myself about a second and a half into the cutting and threw the cutter about 5 feet in reflex when I realized I was probably going through the redgard. I’m guessing the incision into the membrane is no more than 2″, if there is actually one.
Now I’m deliberating on whether or not I should tear out the tiles and do the shower floor over again, or if any leak would be too miniscule to matter. My gut says to tear it out, which would probably be easy as I can cut the redgard around the perimeter walls and just peel up the whole thing by getting between the redgard and the pan. The tiles would be junk of course. I don’t have the tiles on the wall above the floor installed yet, so redoing the redgard on the pan would be a simple matter.
What do you think?
thanks
Hi Jason, my apologies for not responding sooner. I was on vacation when you posted this.
You’ve probably already taken action but I would recommend exactly what you posted. Remove the tile on the pan and do the waterproofing over again. You bring up a good point that if the waterproofing is on the surface of the shower pan then extreme caution is needed when cleaning out any grout joints. But mistakes happen and it looks like no real damage was done.
Good luck and thanks for your question.
Is there a way to do leak test after tiles have been installed? General contractor did shower in master bathroom but did not get the liner inspected for leak. They are giving us warranty for 5 years but we still want to test it now. Is it too late?
If it’s tested after-the-fact then I’m not sure if you can count on the water level staying at the same level throughout the test. If the drain was plugged and water was filled up inside the shower then I think the water would absorb into the pan which would lower the water level.
You could try to do it over several days and see how it goes. Just keep filling it up to a designated level and see if there’s a point at which it quits lowering. If there is a bad leak I would think you guys would find it one way or another.
If you try this please let me know how it went. I’m curious what the results of such a test would be.
Thanks for checking out my blog.
I had a shower remodelled using the Schluter System.
We have puddling in one corner of the shower. (It’s 4’x5′).
After calling the contractor back he identified a slight hump in the pan tile (1/2″ penny round)between the curb and the drain. He says that because it is Schluter the only way to fix it is to rip out the entire pan. Is this correct?
I’m guessing that it is the where the banding for the seam is. But the problem isn’t the Schluter shower pan system. It’s the contractor’s responsibility to fix it. Why would there be only one corner that has an issue?
Schluter Systems is excellent at handling issues like this. I would highly encourage you to contact them and they will guide you on how to handle it from here.
Feel free to contact me again about this.
Yes, I know, I’m stupid… now, here is my question. I’m doing the tiling over Schluter shower system with linear drain. Unfortunately, I didn’t pay attention and bought mortar that is not suitable for shower floors, and… installed tiles already over it (I didn’t seal it yet but mortar is 24hours old). If I would remove all my work, it would cost me to buy and replace everything (tiles, drain, pan). So I thought to just thoroughly seal all seams with sealant and silicon, so not to leave any opportunity for water to go through porcelain to the mortar. What are the chances that it will work?
Hi Vlad, it depends on what you are asking. If the mortar that you purchased for tiling over Kerdi is modified as opposed to non-modified then I think you’ll be ok even though it’s not what Schluter requires. Modified mortars have polymers added and unmodified doesn’t. If you used another kind of adhesive, such as mastic which comes pre-mixed in a bucket, then your best course of action is to remove the tile and start over. There’s a good chance that you can save the Kerdi if this is the case because the mastic probably isn’t even dry yet.
Sealing around the tile isn’t going to do anything. You want you shower to be waterproofed before the tile goes in. In theory, you should be able to shower in your shower without tile. Trying to rely on the seal around the tile to be the sole source of waterproofing is not a good strategy.
I think the best way to check for leaks is to do what’s called a flood test. That’s where you plug the drain and fill your shower pan up with water and let it sit for a couple of days while you keep checking on the water level. If the level stays the same then you’ve passed!
Then unplug the drain and watch the water drain out. If it puddles anywhere then those spots will need to be fixed. This really is the best way of checking your work and knowing if it’s correct before installing all the tile.
Best of luck!
I have to disagree with some of your statements regarding the curb. I’ve been in this industry for 20 yrs. I’ve built a very good reputation for myself and I try to be the best in the industry. Although the wire lath and cement use to be the way it was done back in the previous cement board days I have always used cement board for my curbs. The key is to not puncture the liner below the dry pack period. I also use a solid piece of marble or granite for the top of the curb unless the customer wants to use something else where there will be grout lines. For the most part I always use a solid piece though. And last have the top piece installed first so that the side wall tile sits on top of the curb and then properly caulk ed all around the curb. I take extreme pride in my craft and I’m proud to say I’ve never had a repair or leak in my showers.
We recently had rubber membrane shower pan liners installed in a new build. The problem is that my husband noticed that the liner does not sit flush against the floor in the corners. There seems to be an air pocket. Is this going to cause a problem when we go to lay tile on top of the membrane?
There shouldn’t be air pockets in the corners. They can cause the mud to crack and are vulnerable to punctures. You have me worried when you say that you are going to “lay tile on top of the membrane.” What sort of membrane are you using?
I appreciate your reading my post and commenting on it. But I would still challenge your method. Why is that method preferable? I would think having no penetrations below the curb level would be better than putting screws in the curb.
I have no doubt that you take pride in what you do because the guys that don’t care don’t read about tile online. I would encourage you to check out johnbridge.com and go to the tile forum. Before I found that site I thought I had a lot more things figured out than I actually did. Join the site, hang out, and be open to challenging your current techniques. I’m still constantly learning new things.
Thanks for your comments.
I recently installed a square shower pan, and am using glass blocks on the curb for the wall. After a built the shower pan I realized it’s too big for my bathroom, so I’m going to build the glass wall on an angle cutting part of the back of the pan away. What I want to do is take a 12 ” concrete saw and cut the back part of the pan away flush with the new glass wall, remove the concrete and then red guard everything that’s now exposed, or try to reattach new liner where the old one is now exposed underneath new curb. Is this a viable option? Id statt cutting bout 2/3s the down on curb cut on an angle and connect to other back corner. This will cut existing liner
Hi Adam, I’m not really sure what it is that you want to do. It’s hard to picture. I would encourage you to take this question over to the John Bridge Tile Forum and start a project thread in the Advice section. Post photos as well. Over there you’ll get several opinions from different people.
Thanks for checking out my blog.
OK. So our builder did our shower curb totally and exceptionally wrong. (Hardi board, liner beneath top 2×4, liner only partially across top of second 2×4, liner attached on tip of second 2×4 with staples, liner punctured with Hardi board screws, etc….) The grout began disintegrating. We were removing the shower door and all the tiles came up with the bottom rail. Upon deconstructing the curb, we found water beneath the uncovered top 2×4 and the liner. The bottom of the top 2×4 is also starting to rot. The house is only 1 1/2 years old. The builder is no longer in the picture. My question is, what can we do now? (The shower is tiled, both walls and floor.) Is there a way in which we can only build a curb? We just feel so screwed.
Sorry to hear about your situation. It’s too risky to repair only the curb. What happens if there’s still more problems? Then it all has to be done again.
One option that you may consider is to remove the entire bottom end of the shower. This means all the mud work, curb, wall tile, and wall board up to, say 18-24 inches. Then the whole bottom end would be new. It needs to be tied into the existing walls and it can be challenging trying to match the existing tile exactly but it does keep the costs down and it will completely fix the critical flood area. Maybe I’ll do a post on how to do this in the future.
Unfortunately, your story isn’t rare. There are many, many showers being built incorrectly with no recourse or accountability on behalf of the builder or tile contractor.
Please do not hesitate to ask more questions and feel free to follow up with how this was resolved.
I couple months ago I installed a shower from scratch and everything seemed to go fine I had a good slope, folded the corners of the plastic, flood tested it and everything but now the grout is coming up right where I stand and it seems like the tiles are loose. I cant figure out what the problem is but I dont what to rip the whole thing up before I know what I did wrong the first time. Any imput you could give me would be great, thanks.
Hi Trevor, it’s hard to say what the issue is, especially over the internet with limited information. It could be that your shower and waterproofing are fine and just the tiles are coming loose. Maybe the thinset skimmed over? Maybe some other reason.
Try tapping on some of the tiles and listen if they sound hollow. You might try to replace or reinstall the hollow sounding ones and keep an eye on the shower. Hopefully it’s just some loose tiles and not something more major.
Good luck!
I have a contractor installing my shower. After watching many, many you tube videos I think that since my shower is down to the studs that the liner should be attached to the studs and then the concrete board put on top of that. He is putting up the concrete board and then attaching the liner to the concrete board. Which is correct or does it matter
You would be correct, Tricia. The one exception is if he is going to use a sheet membrane system like the Kerdi shower system. That’s where the waterproofing membrane goes on the surface of the cement board and the tile sticks directly to it. If this is what he wants to do the waterproofing should go all the way up to the showerhead.
If he wants to do a traditional liner system then the tile can’t stick directly to the liner. It needs to go behind the wallboard. If this is his plan I would have him stop immediately and hire someone else. He doesn’t know how to build a shower.
Feel free to ask more questions if need be. I can’t tell you how many brand new leaking showers I come across.
For more information on shower construction and waterproofing please see this post: Shower Waterproofing Crash Course
I had a contractor do my custom shower a year back. (with a mosaic tile shower pan and concrete underlayment)
During use for the past 1 year, shower pan completely dries except the corners which seem always wet. Now there are white salt like hard deposits on the corners in between mosaic grout.
This week after 1 year of installation, I saw water seeping between kitchen floor tiles on the other side of the shower wall.
Do you think I have standing water issue in my shower and if yes is there a solution like waterproofing or I have to rebuild the entire thing again?
This is a serious problem. It’s one thing to have low corners where water maybe collects in them and doesn’t drain. It’s another to have water leaking out of the shower pan. If water is leaking out of the shower pan (shower floor) then I don’t there’s any good way of repairing it short of redoing it. You could do a little more exploratory work if you wanted and open up the sheetrock on the kitchen side. But from your description it sounds pretty conclusive that there’s a leak. You might try contacting the original installer and see if they will do some warranty work?
so, I’m completely redoing our master bath, and having fun with it since i get to buy a bunch of new tools.
our house is relatively new, but our shower started leaking badly….i didn’t know much about it until i started tearing it apart and reading a lot of forums. here’s what i found… it’s almost comical how the contractor made this shower initially:
– walls were all greenboard (no joke). no waterproofing on either side
– greenboard was installed on the walls down to the liner before the floor was poured
– liner was installed directly to the subfloor with no preslope. only 1 layer of cement over liner
– liner was cut at the curb (like picture above)
– curb sloped out of the shower, and towards one side (right where the liner was cut)
you can imagine the disaster I’ve ripped out so far.
so far, i think the only mistake you’d say I’ve made is the cement board curb. i probably would have done it the way you describe if i read your post first. I’m honestly still hoping it’s going to be ok still though because I’m going to put in a solid threshold over the curb.
I’m using hardibacker for the walls, and I’m just reading now that i better use a barrier on the studs before i install it, so i am going to use the roof felt that i used on the floor before i poured the preslope. Hope that is ok.
thanks for all the information here. this is great!
Rick
Hi Rick, it sounds like your shower was pretty bad but you seem to have a pretty good attitude about things. One thing I would recommend is to get some liquid waterproofing, like Redgard for example, and cover the curb and the outside of the shower walls. You can look at this post for reference:
If you’ve put cement board on your curb it will give you much better odds against failing. You never want to rely on the finished product (the threshold) to do the waterproofing. Then, since you have the liquid waterproofing, you may as well do the walls while you’re at it and forget attaching a barrier to the studs.
Hi #Diytileguy, happy new year. thanks for answering my query on Dec-8th. I investigated and found that the water on the other side of the shower wall was not from the pan.
The only issue that still remains is shower floor not entirely drying up especially at corners and crystallized chalk like deposits in between mosaic tile grout.
is there some recommended re-sealing method to handle this situation?
Hi Arun, it sounds like there’s water that isnt draining in the shower pan. It might be just that the corners are a bit low but it might also be holding water. Depending on how it was waterproofed it could be other things also.
As far as sealing it I suppose you could try a penetrating sealer and maybe that would temporarily fix the whiteness of the grout. You would only be treating the symptom and not the real problem. The real solution would be to diagnose and repair the shower pan which is something that can’t be done over the internet.
I did a pre slope mortar, liner, and finally a slope mortar bed. Unfortunately I did not get the final bed sloped very well. Can I patch it in some way or do I need to start over? I have a few places I need to build up a 1/4 inch.
It’s probably best to remove it and try it again. The mud bed is designed to drain and whatever you use to patch it can interfere with that goal.
On the bright side, the mud mix isn’t very expensive.
Why couldn’t you just float the low spots with thin set?
1/4 inch is a bit much for thinset. Manufacturer’s don’t want their products being used for leveling and flattening purposes.
I feel for Debbie, we just bought a house last July of 2015- it was built in 2011. We thought we were moving into an almost brand new home when we’ve started to have issues… Most recently our master shower started leaking water and the floor and base board began to swell. I had a contractor come look at it and what I thought would be a simple chalk fix is now turning into a full remodel. The groat is breaking where it attaches to the bed pan and I was thinking that was the cause of the leak but the contractor thinks there was never any waterproofing put behind the tile. We have some rust color showing through the groat… Which made me think I need to clean the shower… We haven’t used that shower since we noticed the leak weeks ago. My question is, is that actually roating wood? How can you find out without tearing the shower apart?
Unless you can tear out the wallboard behind the shower then you probà
ly can't diagnose it without removing the shower. The rust could be from a nail which is not a good thing.Unfortunately, I see this more than you would think. I have a newer housing development nearby that I get a good amount of calls from. Leaking showers, moisture ants, mold, loose tiles, etc.
Great informational site. Installing a new tub with tile surround. I will be using durarock cement board for the walls. Would you recommend Redguard paint over the durarock before installing tile? Have you ever had any bonding issues with the tile and the redguard?
Thanks
We are in the process of taking bids and interviewing to have both bathrooms in our home re done. Once because it is original/ outdated and we want it covered from shower tub to walk in shower the other because we have a water issue seepage from behind the wall tiles leaving the floor moist at the edges always. Is there any difference between a solid pour concrete curb and a curb using 2×4 wood? Just curious we want this done right the first time.
Typically a curb for a shower is built out of wood (often 2×4’s) if the subfloor is wood. With concrete subfloors they are built out of bricks a lot of times. I’m not 100% sure I understand what a solid pour concrete curb is. If the shower pan liner is inside the concrete curb then it’s probably ok. The liner would need to rise higher than the shower pan to be effective.
So there’s nothing wrong with a 2×4 wood curb but a lot of times installers like to nail cement board (or Hardibacker) on top and inside the curb. This is a no-no.The wood curb needs to be wrapped with the liner then metal lath and a concrete-type substance. That’s how it’s done without puncturing it on top and in the front. Hopefully this answer isn’t too technical.
If you are looking for an installer I recommend checking out the Certifified Tile Installer List or the NTCA Contractor List for tile installers in your area.
Hi there. We just purchased a home that was beautifully remodeled. But… There is a problem. We have lived here for a month and noticed they took a lot of short cuts on remodeling. I am now concerned with the master shower. It’s huge an floor to wall porcelain tile (looks like carrera) shower. How will I know if they properly “water proofed” this shower? It’s on the second story of the house , right above my kitchen. It seems to drain properly but there is a spot close to the drain that holds a bit of water. Scary stuff! I never even once thought about this while we were in the process of purchasing.
Unless you want to cut open the walls that are on the other side of the shower, or cut open the ceiling below it, there’s no real way to tell for sure. The best thing that you can do is keep a close eye on it. Looks for signs of swelling and cracking. Watch for water damage and discoloration in the sheetrock around it.
It’s not guaranteed to leak but I do get a fair amount of calls from the recently remodeled homes that have showers that have leaked from day 1. The house gets purchased and the new buyers are stuck with it. Most inspectors don’t know what to look for with showers. A lot of times they will see missing grout or caulking and recommend that it gets regrouted prior to purchase. Sometimes that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Hopefully things will work out ok for your guys but at least you know to keep watch on it.
Hi and thank you for having this question board! Here is my situation. I had a new shower (60″) with the tray and surround put in less than a year ago. The entire purpose of this shower was for my 125lb dog as the shower is in the mudroom right where he comes in. Because of the fact it is meant for dog washing as well as human use when necessary, I did not want a shower door. Instead I had a shower curtain put up. The floor adjacent to the shower is Moduleo PVC waterproof flooring. The problem I have is that the curtain needs a curb to sit behind to prevent water from coming out or the curtain from blowing out of the liner area and getting all over the floor outside the shower. My thought is to put up a curb of some sort? I had actually found the Kerdi and Durock sites with the prefab curbs. or thought to have the curb built from the Kerdi Boards and waterproofed before setting it. Any suggestions???
If your shower is currently water tight then you could use a foam Kerdi or Wedi curb to hold the water in. Then tile around it. Whichever product that you choose comes with an adhesive which you would glue the foam down with and seal around the seams. The preformed foam curbs are a bit bulky for my tastes but they would be the easiest to install. I would prefer the 1.5 or 2 inch Wedi board but you would probably have a good deal of waste.
Hi There!
I read your article above which made me realize there seems to be one one problem with the shower we’ve built up so far- the curb. I’m hoping for some input.
We initially had a plumber come and prepare the liner while doing the plumbing to switch from our old bath & shower combo to a new walk-in shower. The liner was prepared properly and extended past the curb and a leak test was done.
Then we had a separate contractor come in to do the drywalling and another guy to do the mud pan. They were over at the same time, so not sure which one had the bright idea, but they used the cement board on top of the curb and screwed it down. I saw that another gentleman above asked how to resolve this and you suggested not relying on the finished threshold for waterproofing (solid curb material on top) and to use some type of liquid waterproofing.
My question is, would that be better than using the Kerdi material? I would actually prefer to use the same mosaic tile I choose for the shower to cover the shower curb, since the bathroom is small and want to limit breaks in materials to give the illusion of one long space. So I was hoping that using the mosaic with either the Kerdi membrane or a liquid waterproof product would still give me that option despite the hiccup with the curb. I’m not sure if it’s worth noting that both the shower floor and bathroom floor have mud over them (in case that eleminates the Kerdi option).
And in a slightly related topic, I also have an existing window made up of privacy blocks. It’s recessed about 5 or 6 inches all the way around. After ripping out the older shower, it was finished with the waterproof cement board as well. It is pitched down toward the shower, but since water will hit the flat surface of the window ledge, should I also use Kerdi or the waterproofing liquid on top of the cement board there as well?
Sorry for all the questions but you advice is so thorough and much appreciated, it’s so scary hiring people to do the work in bathrooms!
If there’s cement board nailed to the top of the curb it’s done improperly. There are some installers that do this on a regular basis and they apply a waterproofing membrane over the curb (and the nails) to make a sort of band-aid fix to it. I don’t recommend this. I would rather the curb be installed correctly in the first place. However either a liquid waterproofing or a Kerdi membrane would do the same thing. And, yes, the horizontal window ledge should get the same treatment.
Thanks for reading my blog and your questions are good ones!
Hi! Thank you for your post. I am currently in the middle of a master bathroom renovation brought about by a failed shower pan and faulty curb and liner.
The contractor we have has built the pan, liner and curb correctly from everything I can tell. They have tiled and I am concerned about the tile job.
They didn’t grout where the tile floor and tile wall meet. They also didn’t grout where the walls come together in the corners. They just put caulking in there. It’s a pretty big gap too. Shouldn’t this be grouted? And then maybe caulked over after that for extra protection?
Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!
No. The proper way is to caulk it. It’s not uncommon to grout it but 100% silicone caulk will allow for movement and help to prevent future cracking.
I am building a circular shower in a small turret on my tiny house. I plan on using a mix of perlite and cement for the mortar bed so it is lighter weight. Is there an additive that I should use to help the bed withstand the tiny house on wheels being moved? Any tips for a successful install of the liner in a circular shower? I was going to get a prefab shower pan but the only one I could find that was circular was going to cost around $1,300 for just the pan. I know this is a very novel idea and would appreciate any tips you may have. I think getting the preslope and slope right might actually be easier in a circular pan lol
I love the small house movement!
I don’t know if there’s a lighter mortar mix. There may be a way of making it lighter but I don’t really know what it would involve.
I know the foam pans are expensive but I don’t know why you couldn’t order a square one and cut it so it’s round? For instance, this Wedi pan is 48″x48″ (affiliate link) and it’s $600. Wedi isn’t cheap and there may be other options (brands) beside it. The foam products are fairly easy to waterproof and they are light.
I apologize if I’m not answering your question. Please ask again if the above comment wasn’t helpful.
Hello! Thank you so much for all the information on your blog!
I’m having an issue with my brand-new shower installation in my home. The shower is 4′ x 6′, constructed with a vapor barrier, rubber sheet, poured concrete pan, durarock and marble mosaic tiles. The problem is, from the first shower on, there has been a growing wet stain where the wall tile meets the floor tile that reuses to dry out. After using the shower less than a dozen time, then letting it dry out for over ten days, we used a moisture meter to check the wetness, and it’s reading 100% from one inch above the floor and on the floor. Two to three inches above the floor, other areas of the floor closer to the drain. Higher up on the shower walls the meter read little to no wetness, and there is no visual appearance of anything being wet. My belief is the pan was incorrectly installed (rubber sheeting under the concrete, with no pre-slope; cut, not folded sheeting; improper pitch on the slope, nails/screws lower than the curb; a curb built of durarock and set with screws, no additional water-proofing. I have photos of some of this). My question is, how reliable are moisture meters in these cases? If I’m still getting 100% moisture readings (set to masonry) after ten days of non-use, wouldn’t that lead you to believe the pan was incorrectly installed and water is sitting between the concrete and rubber barrier? The contractor thinks that it’s fine if the tile never dries out; I of course, completely disagree.
It sounds like it could be a couple of different things:
1. There may be a “bird bath” in the shower pan or in the liner that is allowing water to collect and not drain. Unfortunately the only real fix for this is to tear out the pan and redo it.
2. It could be a case of clogged weep holes in the drain. There’s little tiny weepholes in the drain below the tile. The purpose of them is to drain any water that gets underneath the tile and down to the liner. They can clog and when that happens the pan fills up with water and darkens the marble tiles.
The fix for this is to dig down around the drain all the way to the liner. This is a surgical type of procedure and one has to be careful not to damage the waterproof liner. Once down to the drain you can unbolt the clamping collar and fix the weepholes. Then put everything back together.
The two fixes that I’ve listed above are common fixes but you also need to check and make sure that your marble is suitable for wet areas. Some stones are very susceptible to moisture and staining and they will have problems no matter what.
Our newly expanded shower is leaking inside the rubber liner/blatter and the backerboard. It followed over just enough to cause our baseboard to yellow as if water was in it i.e. mold building up.
Should we re grout and and seal with water proofing.
No. The grout and tile are treated as simply cosmetic. They should never be relied upon to be the primary waterproofing in a shower. You have a more serious problem and the liner will probably need to be replaced and redone.
I need advice. Should I have my new shower pan built properly out of morter or buy the KBRS tile basin
This is a good question. It’s impossible for me to tell you which way to go over the internet and not knowing anything about the application or your abilities. However, I think the foam pans, such as KBRS, make installing and waterproofing much easier for a homeowner. So if you are willing to go that route and pay a little bit more up front then I would ask you to take a good look at that option being the prime option.
I recently had my shower remodeled. But it leaks where the door attaches to the wall. My contractor added a trim to the bottom and side of the door. It still leaks. I checked the curb level and it is sloped away from the shower pan toward the bathroom floor. The top of the curb is a solid piece of marble. Can the marble be removed and reset with a proper slope toward the shower?
The marble piece can be removed and fixed so that it slopes inward. Probably a new marble piece will be necessary.
The tile on the curb will probably need repair work also to make sure that they help the marble piece slope inward.
Hi ,
Our contractor did everything right except that he did not waterproof the soap niche. …I am worried that water will seep through that area and behind the tile ….
He says the grout and sealant will take care of the water proofing but I am not sure as the niche has glass mosaic and too many uneven surfaces where it meets the tile piece on the bottom part of the niche .
Also shouldn’t the back mosaic piece sit on top of he bottom tile piece which is slanting towards the shower so that the water drips on it and falls off into the pan area ?
Please advise if we should re do it .
The niche needs to be waterproofed. My next post is about this very subject. The niche should be waterproof before installing any tile or grout.
I’m not aware of any hard and fast rule about which way the tile should overlap. If the niche is waterproof it shouldn’t really matter and then would be a choice if whichever looks the best I would think.
thanks for your prompt response
Guy who did my pan had personal issiues. I’m left finishing tiling my shower.
Concrete board, redguarded well, comes down the wall over the pan but not all the way to the bottom and has space so that when i finish the travertine tile on pan floor and then put last row of tile on the wall there would be a 3/8’s inch space between the tile and the wall where it meets the floor.
i guess i should thinset that till its flush when i mount that last row.
thanks for the help
3/8 inch space may be a bit much. I don’t prefer to do it this way but some manufacturer’s do want their board installed like this. Best way is to caulk the bottom of the board to the shower pan. If you look up the manufacturer’s instructions for the cement board it probably says to do this. Use 100% silicone or even a waterproof urethane.
My new threshold-less shower is leaking through to the porch below. It has a line drain at other end from the shower head and door. They tell me the shower pan backing up the drain completely fills up with each shower and spills over and descends through the floor about at the entry/glass door.My contractor says that the line drain is working properly and the pan/liner etc was installed properly, and that the solution will be to build a 2×4 plus tile plus marble curb at the door, covered with the liner. I am wondering why is the back-up pan filling up and overflowing? Do they usually fill up with each shower? How much do they fill up if working properly? Is there likely another issue beyond the curb-less entry?
Your shower shouldn’t be leaking weather there’s a curb or not. For curbless showers the area outide the shower is supposed to be waterproofed as well. It sounds like yours probably isn’t. It’s a pretty big fix. Possibly a whole new shower and bathroom floor.
Is there a good way to proceed to find the reason for the pan filling up? I do not want to drag this out and I also do not want to jump to the demand to have it all torn up and redone. I like the contractor a lot, but with the leaks, I have to question the sub here. They have a longer relationship than I do. What should I expect from them first, second and so forth? Do they HAVE to tear up all the tile to find the problem, I mean, eyeball the whole waterproofing, or can they target the seep drain, etc. Thanks for your expert help.
Sarah, it’s hard to know why the pan is filling up. It sounds like it may be a drain issue. If it’s an old tub space then the drain pipe may only be 1.5 inches. When converting to a shower it’s supposed to be switched to a two inch pipe.
Also, linear drain grates sometimes don’t let enough water pass through. This is particularly an issue with the tile top linear drain grates. If the gaps around aren’t big enough then that could be why water backs up. Or it could just be the plumbing. Maybe a clog?
If a contractor is going to install a curbless shower it’s critical that the water drain quickly. But a little extra water or a slow drain shouldn’t cause the shower to leak. It sounds to me like you have multiple problems going on. If you’ve paid for a new shower it should drain quickly and not leak into the space below. Leaking showers can do thousands of dollars of damage to a home. A flood test should have been done on your shower before it was tiles to make sure there were no leaks in the waterproofing. You might ask if this was done.
Curbless showers have become much more common nowadays. There are proper ways to build them. It doesn’t sound like yours was properly built. I would ask about how yours was built, if a flood test was conducted, and how far the waterproofing extends past the shower.
Hi, I have a leak that appears to originate from the tiny space between the tiles and the plastic drain cup that funnels into the drain. The space between the tile and the plastic cup is only about 1 mm in places. I have attempted to clean away the old loose grout and after drying the area sealed it with silicon.
The leak was initially holding, but after a day sadly the water is leaking through into the cellar again. I live in a very small village and help is hard to come by. Any suggestions?
I think that you are referring to a shower floor between the tile and the round plastic drain? If so, water shouldn’t be leaking there. The shower is supposed to be designed so that water can get through there and still not leak.
It probably means that you don’t have proper waterproofing and unfortunately there is no easy fix.
So I’m an idiot that didn’t plan very well…. watched a couple of bad youtube videos and thought, “yeah, I got this.”
So I used Mastic to put of ceramic wall tile in a shower, and I didn’t seal any of the edges of the hardi-plank. How screwed am I? Question, if I use an epoxy grout on ceramic glazed tiles, is there any hope of not having to rip it all out?
Thanks
I had a pro do a bath remodel. Can’t tell from your picture of the concrete board going down to the pan. Is the liner supposed to be behind the concrete board? like this?
[Links removed]
After some thought I decided to remove the links because I’m afraid people will be able to see the rest of the album which had pictures of the tile installer.
To answer your questions and concerns: the liner is supposed to go behind the cement board. There are aspects of the project that look professional. But there are things that definitely aren’t good.
Namely, the shower pan liner doesn’t go up the walls high enough. The nails for the cement board are too low. The inside of the curb should not be nailed or screwed through (cement board shouldn’t be used for the curb). Also your comments about the cuts around the drain and some of the other details are right on.
It would be best to not go forward until those things are corrected.
Hi,I have just had a bath remodel with mud shower pan…not sure if the contractor did things right…but the shower floor is a mess…high spots low spots …just a complete mess!!! Do you feel this needs to be completely torn out and redo???if so what do you feel this cost would roughly be?…am I looking in the hundreds or thousands????
My first thought would be that I hope the contractor would warrantee their work. If its just the shower pan that needs to be replaced it would probably run in the low thousands. However often times there’s more to do than just the shower pan.
So it is fine to screw the cement board to the walls, patch the screw holes and seams with thinset, then paint on two coats of waterproof liner, but it is not acceptable to do the same process for a properly-sloped curb?
Sorry, but I don’t follow your logic. If the liner is in place at the curb, and a generous spot of silicone caulk is placed on the liner at each location a screw will penetrate the liner where the cement board is laid for the curb, the screw holes are patched with thinset then the curb is properly coated with sealer, how can this leak?
You bring up a good point and I hadn’t really thought of it from that angle.
A wood framed shower bench- for example- is basically done the way you described: screw holes patched, seams taped, and 2 coats of waterproofing. The bench does get thinset down before screws (or nails). If you thinset cement board to a curb it’s going to be over the shower pan liner which can still move.
Additionally the shower pan and curb are the areas of the most abuse. All the water that hits the shower glass will run down onto the curb.
I understand your point. I can’t guarantee that a method like that would fail. But I do know that using cement board on the curb isn’t a best practice. It’s not an industry accepted method either.
My marble bath is now 5 yrs old. I now have a horizontal crack in the marble threshold of the shower. Heaven forbid it would have happened on the opposite side (dry side) of the glass, but NOOOOOOOOO! It is on the inside of the shower glass and, of course, the glass door sits on the marble. The crack is about an inch from the glass and about 15″ long. I could send you a pic. Can this be repaired? In order to replace the slab, it will cost me just under $1,500 to have the glass removed and replaced (already checked pricing with my glass guy; the installed glass was $3,600). Thanks for your help.
We had a leak from a complete rebuild done by a contractor who we now know was a handyman more than a shower expert. The whole shower had to be rebuilt, after plumbers and 3 reputable professional contractors came to examine the problem.(the original guy did not honour his written guarantee). We took pics and video of the demolition.
We learns that the original guy did not use a liner or a liner paint. He used a pre-fabbed styrofoam shower pan, tile went over top. The demolition showed a half inch grout line where the tile met the step into the shower stall. That grout line was apparently too big and water ldamage was found directly on the beams below this area. The original contractor is saying the materials must have been faulty, either the tiles or the grout… Strange how could the grout would be faulty only in one area of the shower stall?
How wide should a grout line not exceed? And how waterproof is grout (how long should it last)? The tile subcontractor claims his work was good. Yet we have a leak sourced from one or two areas in the same vicinity to the extra wide grout line…? Any insight would be helpful, thank you.
First things first: The tile and grout are not the waterproofing. Typically a shower should have a flood test done before the tile and grout are even installed. Any contractor that says a shower leaked because of either the tile or grout failed simply doesn’t know what they are saying.
You need to find someone that knows what they are doing. Insist on a flood test. Hopefully you will find someone that will know what that is and how to conduct it.
Hello?,
Last year we build a tiled shower with a mortar bed and pebble floor using Red Guard and the Quick Pitch system. Did it all as instructed and it was great. We also used a Maax glass shower door. A few months ago we were devasted with a major flood and found that our shower valves broke, which caused the water to run unhindered. With 30″ of water in the house we found the shower filled with 40″ and still holding. Then the demo guys tore, hacked and broke all the walls out. My question:
Can i repair the wall bases with Dryloc and Red Guard to meet the actual wall and floor and existing Red Guard membrane and rebuild my walls-keeping my mortarbed shower base?
Thank you
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I’m having a hard time understanding the question. You might be able to keep the existing mortar beds but I’m not clear on what is happening besides that.
Hi, I am building a shower stall with mosaic tile floors for my aging mother and the plumbers installed the pvc liner right on the wood subfloor and it wraps completely over the curb, which was constructed of 2 stacked 2×4’s. Since the curb is only 3″ high (my mom is tiny and frail so I didn’t want a big step) I am not sure if I pull it out and do a pre-slope first, then re-apply the liner and mortar over that- that either layer of the mortar layers will be thick enough to prevent cracking. Seems that in order to have the recommended 1/4″ slope and not go to high up with the 3″ curb I can probably only have it 2″ thick at the corners/edges and down to 1.375″ at the drain. This would be halved if I do a pre-slope. Also, I am using Kerdi waterproofing membrane over the mud floor AND walls and curb. Do I need a pre slope anyway or will these thin layers compromise the strength of the bed and crack?
I think you’re mixing methods. Usually you would use a pvc liner OR a Kerdi membrane- not both. So if the plumber installed the liner- yes, he did it wrong by putting it directly on the subfloor. But if you are using a Kerdi system then you would remove the pvc liner and not use it at all.
The problem you are going to run into is how you tie the Kerdi membrane into the drain. Schluter has their own Kerdi drain which is what the plumber should have installed. However you probably have a 3 piece clamping drain installed. You can make this work in one of two ways:
Use Schluter’s drain adapter
Or use a drain flashing like this the one from Noble
I would highly encourage you to go to Schluter’s site and look at their Kerdi shower handbook and their youtube videos.
Hi we just had a shower liner PVC 40 mil nailed to 2x4s etc. and place on floor of shower. Near the drain there is a slice on the liner that is positioned on the outside of the drain that is bolted down. I was thinking it would be enough to have them install a whole new liner…yes or no? Also, underneath the liner, the plumber left a lot of debris (wood chips, etc) that are visible and protrude when you go over the liner with your hand. Plumber used roofing nails to nail liner down… ? Should I be concerned? Thanks for your expert advice.
What you are going to want to do, no matter what, is require that the pan liner be flood tested.
But what you’ve described sounds bad. Nails should not be in the liner down in the flood zone. You should have a preslope underneath the liner so that water will drain when it hits the liner. There shouldn’t be debris or anything else underneath the liner.
It sounds like laziness, sloppiness, or incompetence on the installers part. Personally I would never let a plumber install the liner but I know that’s the custom in some areas of the US.
i didn’t know how to create a shower floor with the proper slope for drainage. i hired someone to do it for me. afterwards it looked fine. well, i just took my first shower in my new bathroom and lo and behold,the water DOES NOT flow to the drain!!! well, to be fair, the side wall in the center seems to be the lowest spot on the floor, so that’s where quite a bit of the water stays!! what can ido?? obviously i got ripped off and can’t get in touch with the guy, whatta surprise! i can’t find anymore of the tile i used at the store, of course. please tell me that there is somethoing i can do to fix this or at least make it less than a problem!
I’m not sure what can be done about this except to tear the shower floor out and redo it. If you want to DIY your shower pan I recommend one of the foam shower pans that are available now. They come from companies like Wedi, Noble, Schluter, Laticrete, and others.
The drain should be the lowest part of the floor. If it’s sitting towards the side then that’s not good.
Thank you for your website. I installed a natural stone mosaic for my shower floor which looks great, but I have yet to seal the tile and grout the joints. My concerns is that some of the joint spaces between stones is very very thin. Probably too thin to get grout. Do I need to use a small stone cutting tool to open up these gaps?
Here is the tile: You can see the smallness of the joints in the photo.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/American-Olean-Delfino-Stone-Arctic-Topaz-Pebble-Mosaic-Limestone-Wall-Tile-Common-12-in-x-12-in-Actual-12-5-in-x-12-5-in/50122049
This can happen when the floor curves inward like a shower pan does. It closes up the joints slightly. I don’t think that I would worry about. Use a sanded grout that can be used for joints 1/2 inch or bigger and will get in small joints like 1/16th inch. Some examples of this type of grout would include Prism, Permacolor, and Ultracolor. Other companies make this type of grout also.
I’m remodeling my own bathroom and just did my own shower pan – preslope of sand mix, 40 mil liner folded at corners and up and over curb with pre-molded curb corners glued with liner adhesive only roofing nails at top of liner all 3in above curb height, then top slope of sand mix.
Everything seemed great, but I was finishing the top slope super late and the inside curb edge was the last thing I did. I checked it closely this morning and the inside curb edge isn’t super smooth since there were no board forms to trough (?) to and I noticed one place on the top edge I either missed or the mud crumbled off and I can see a bit of the lathe.
My question is, have you had any experience with adding on concrete after the initial concrete has hardened? My thought is I could add a board form to the top of the curb that slightly protrudes over inside edge (secured without screwing it in) and then just skim in (?) a new top coat just for the inside curb wall and top curb edge. The goal being to make a nice clean/smooth inside edge of the curb while covering the tiny spot where I see the lathe.
I looked on the sakrete site and it seems like they have some concrete repair products that bond to existing concrete. Have you ever used these products and do you think my idea of just doing a new inside wall of the curb will work? This was honestly one of the hardest DIY projects I’ve done and I would hate to break up the entire curb just to make a cleaner edge and fix a small mistake.
Thanks for any insight you can share and thanks for you blog. Very informative and helpful.
Help! So my contractor did not slope the floor before the liner and now the concrete is hard and flat (no slope to it) – he is suggesting putting red guard over both the walls AND the shower pan with the liner with concrete on top of liner… can we do this?
Also I was going to insist on flood test today- will the hurt my hardibacker board which comes down into my pan?
What I mean is my hardibacker board goes to the bottom of my pan the liner goes up behind it- then concrete poured to make the base? If we flood it, my hardibacker will get all wet, is this okay?
If you want to go the patching route I would just use Masons Mix for this. Or the same cement/sand mix that you used for the pan with some lime added to it.
You could also wait until you install the inside of the curb tile. Just take your time with this part of it and get the inside straight and level. Same with the outside. Once the two are in and dry you can fill the top with medium bed mortar. Then use the top of the tile (inside and outside) to screed it off. Clean it up good and you’ll have a nice flat surface for the top of the curb.
One answer will fix both problems. You’ll have to remove the hardibacker and remove the liner and put a preslope in. The water has to drain. Just because he didn’t do it doesn’t mean that he should continue to move forward. It’s an important part of the process.
Then flood test it prior to installing the wall board. You’ll want to watch the water drain and since you would now have a preslope all the water should drain out. You don’t want to see water collect anywhere like the corners or a puddle in the middle. If it collects anywhere it’ll have to be fixed before moving forward. There can be little droplets of water that remain but it shouldn’t collect into a puddle.
Good thing that you caught this when you did.
I have recently been smelling a musty smell from my bedroom closet and did some inspecting yesterday. I found a very small water leak coming under the wall and soaking the pad in my closet. On the other side of that wall is my master bedroom shower. I dont know much about showers, but in the shower the bottom edges are caulked, but the vertical edges along the walls are not. Is it possible that water is leaking though these edges, down the wall, and soaking through the other side of the wall to the closet? The leak is not near any piping that I know of as the faucet is on the opposite side of this leak. This was a new home when purchased but we have found many areas of the house where the contractors took shortcuts. The shower is approx 10 year old if that is relevant.
I don’t know if you have a tile shower floor or not. Maybe you have just a fiberglass shower pan. Shower pans don’t usually “suddenly” leak. It’s usually something that has been happening for some time.
It is very possible, especially in the house that you’ve described, that the tile installers didn’t do anything to seal the vertical corner of the tile backer board behind the tile. If this is the case and there’s water getting in somewhere (usually a cracked grout or caulk joint) then it could have a straight path behind the wall and into your closet. This could be shored up by fixing any cracks in the grout. But you’ll have to keep an eye out for cracks from here on out and patch them as quickly as possible.
Thank you for your swift response. It is an all tile shower. I noticed caulk on the bottom edges but there is only grout (which has cracks) on the vertical edges. I never knew there needed to be caulk there until today. Hopefully that is the problem, thank you for your input.
Hi- I have a shower made with preslope over plywood subfloor, shower pan liner, sloped concrete/dry pack- THEN hydroban painted over the whole floor and over curb (no nails in curb). The slope before tiling over the hydroban layer was 1/4″ per foot. Pebbles were put around the main weep holes before the concrete/dry pack was used. The drain is Kohler K-9136 with one 2.5GPM rain head. Polished marble tiles set in modified thinset, epoxy grout after weeks of curing time. Shower was used 6 weeks before water was becoming trapped under the tiles around the drain. I am suspecting small amounts of water have no access to the drain weep holes because they are mortared on top of a total hydrobanned surface. This wet spot under the tiles never dries out with a wekk plus of nonuse, and the water stain was growing 1 inch per week. I am being blamed for choosing marble tiles- I contend that any tile will have water trapped underneath in a double waterproofing method like this. Is it possible to salvage this installation without a total tear out if the weepholes can be checked and any tiles removed around the drain are NOT reinstalled with hydroban underneath? Should/could additional weepholes be drilled into the upper drain assembly? Your opinion would be appreciated. Thanks.
Yes, there should be silicone caulk there but the substrate, the walls behind the tile, should be sealed also. Obviously there’s not a lot that you can do about it now besides tear the shower out. But the shower should be waterproof before any tile is installed. It doesn’t sound like yours is.
If the dark spot is around the drain it could very likely be a weephole problem. Sometimes the clamping collar can be fastened too tight or the sealant that’s around the drain and underneath the liner can be blocking as well.
What can be done is to remove the tiles around the drain and dig the drypack out until you get to the clamping collar. Then remove the clamping collar and let things dry out. Make sure the weepholes work before things get put back together. The whole footprint of the repair should be about the size of a coffee can lid. It’s a relatively low impact repair as long as the liner isn’t damaged in the process.
Thank you! That sounds like high impact to me- that clamping collar is way down there. I don’t remember the plumbers using a sealant there, but its possible. If its not too tight, can you use some type of tool to ream the sealant out of the weep hole to minimize chances of breaking the liner?
I forgot that you have Hydroban over the whole shower pan floor. You may have to remove the tile on the shower floor and remove the Hydroban also. I would consider that to be a more extensive repair.
While you are doing that it would be a good time to make sure that the weep holes work also. If there’s any doubt you should do the procedure that I’ve already described.
I find just using a chisel to remove the dry pack around the drain works well. If you keep it close to the drain then you’ll hit the clamping collar at the bottom as opposed to the liner.
This is one of those things that’s difficult to describe with text. Hopefully it makes sense.
Hi, I have a question about a curved shower threshold and the 40 mil membrane. I have done several of these concrete bases with the pvc membrane and each one was a learning experience and each had their challenges. the first one was an alcove shower that was pretty simple. I’ve done a neo-angle corner shower and getting the membrane over the angles of the threshold was a bit challenging but very do-able. I’m currently working on a corner round shower base that is built to spec. with a specific curved glass shower door. My question to you is, are there any tricks to get the membrane up and over the curb with minimal folding? I’ve never had to cut a liner and glue/patch the liner to make it fit but with my curved curb, i’m considering cutting the liner and gluing with overlap. Is this safe? I don’t like seams but I’m thinking that the use of seams might just make this a bit easier for my project. Thanks.
Radius curbs can be challenging. Assuming the curb curves outwardly when you are standing in the shower you shouldn’t have to make any cuts inside the shower area. But you’ll probably have to make them on top of the curb. I would fold the curb on the inside vertical part of the curb. You’ll probably have to do this several times. The inside of the curb would be sort of pleated. Then you’ll have to slice it to get it to fold over the top of the curb. Everywhere you slice it will need to be patched. Use whatever glue they recommend. It doesn’t have to win any beauty awards it just has to be waterproof. The folds won’t be an issue with metal lath over them. That will be another fun thing to shape around a radius.
Another option is to use a liquid waterproofing over the shower pan. I hate liquid showers but a radius is a good place to do them. This would be instead of a shower pan membrane. You’d have to use either a bonding flange drain (Kerdi drain) or make a divot around a standard drain. If you go this route I would use the fabric that they tell you is optional.
My 2nd floor shower has been showing signs of water damage and I’ve decided to take on the task myself. I’ve never done anything like this before. I’ve watched dozens of videos and am confident (NOOOOT) that I can do this. I don’t want to replace the entire tile enclosed shower with tile floor and builder shower pan. Would like to remove about a foot maybe 1.5 feet of tile up the wall, remove the shower pan, and replace the green sheet rock with 1/2 ” wonderboard or hardibacker to match thickness of sheetrock. I know for a fact water has gotten into the sheetrock, I just won’t know how bad the damage is until I start pulling things apart. I have noticed cracks on the grout (vertical corners) and silicone seal keeps coming undone and I keep re-sealing it. Worse case scenario I may have to gut the whole thing and start from the studs. House is only 10 yrs old.
Now to my question, I keep leaning towards using the Shluter Kerdi Shower Kit 32×60 w center drain (the existing drain is centered). However, videos with concrete base / pan they use the 40mil pvc rubber membrane. Want to make this as water proof as possible so wondering: Can I use the pvs rubber, use modified (non-modified) thinset and then put the Shluter pan on top, and then use Redguard to seal connections? In other words,
1. Will thinset stick to the rubber
2. Can I use redguard around the Kerdi shower tray?
I know many reading this are probably going to think I’m crazy and don’t know what the heck I’m doing and the answer would be yes to both, which is why I’m writing this post. :-)
Many recommend to go with concrete base floor, which I also know nothing about.
3. How much do I need to reinforce the subfloor in order to ensure it will hold the concrete?.
Need to get it fixed ASAP because there is obviously a water problem. Of course $$ is an issue otherwise, I would’ve hired someone. Please, any advise or recommendations will be greatly appreciated…. As long as you don’t laugh too hard!
I’m a little confused about what it is that you want to do. Replacing 1.5 ft of the bottom of the shower is more difficult then just replacing the entire shower. By doing the whole thing you don’t have to worry about tying into an existing installation. Also it won’t look like someone tried to patch a shower.
If you want to do a Kerdi system, with the foam Kerdi shower pan, just read the instructions, watch the videos, and do it exactly as they say. If you follow their instructions then you won’t be using any Redgard and you won’t have a 40 mil vinyl liner. You’ll be using only the Kerdi system with their waterproof fabric.
I think for your case the Kerdi system along with the foam shower floor would be an excellent choice. It’s a great DIY’er system.
Thanks for the post!
Marilyn — How did you end up dealing with the crack in your marble threshold? We may have a similar problem and I’d love to hear how you addressed yours. Thanks so much!
It looks like I never responded to the original question.
As far as the marble threshold it could be repaired by a professional and glued back together and be done to look reasonably ok.
You could also repair it yourself with an epoxy and results will depend on your experience with this type of repair. Also you could caulk the crack to seal it up.
For the curb, your shower should be water tight even with water getting through a crack in the threshold piece. The marble should just be for looks and contribute very little to the waterproofing of the shower.
I need to emphasize the word “should”. Not all showers are built properly and this may not be the case. In fact, a crack in the threshold could be a result of water getting past the shower waterproofing.
Hi there. Great blog! I am getting ready to rough-in my shower and I realized that the shower pan is going to leave the height to the finished surface of the curb will be, at best estimate, 1.25″ – assuming that I really need the 2 1/2″ of mud on top of the liner. What happened is the plumber did the pan liner for me, they used mud to create a slope under the liner, then they installed the liner ( and not well ). So now I am in the calculations process and I could use advise on how to handle this situation. Should I just throw another 2×4 on the curb and slide the shower liner over? I have plenty of extra on the back wall, it goes up the wall about 18″ then just redo the prefab corners.
What would you do? How do you do a shower pan over plywood floor?
A typical shower with a wood framed curb is usually three 2×4’s tall- so 4.5 inches. If it’s a really big shower you will need to add wood on top of the curb. Additionally there should be between 1.5 and 2 inches of drypack “mud” over the liner in the shower area. That’s how your shower should be set up.
I think that answers your question but please let me know if it doesn’t. This is a question that I think others could benefit from.
Cool to read!
How are you fastening the wire lathe to the curb if you can’t use nails or screws through the pan.
We have a bench seat being installed. The pan goes up over the framing as it should but it needs hard I BOARD attached for the tile to be applied. We could do wire lathe there also however you have the same issue. You have to have some kind of fasteners through the pan at some point in order to secure whatever it is you’re installingbbover the pan.
For the curb I prebend the metal lath to the right shape and then install it over the curb and liner. When doing this I “over bend” the lath so that it fits snugly. Then I use staples, screws, or nails to fasten it to the curb on the front side only. Not the top and not the inside. That’s the only way that it should be fastened.
When fastening the wall board on you can penetrate the backerboard but all penetrations should be a minimum of 3 inches above the finished curb height. You shouldn’t have any penetrations inside the wet area at the curb level and below with the exception of the drain.
For the bench, it used to be a good practice to drape the liner over the bench top. But this was back in the days of “mudding” the shower walls. The mud guys had ways of bending the lath without fastening it on the horizontal areas.
But nowadays I don’t do it this way anymore. If it’s a cement board shower I would thinset down and fasten the cement board to the bench, tape and mud the seams with alkaline resistant mesh tape (including the corners), and then go over it with two coats of liquid waterproofing. The liquid waterproofing would go over the entire shower walls and down to the shower pan so that it overlaps the vinyl shower pan liner.
I recently completed a full house renovation and in the master bathroom had a 4 x 5 shower built with marble mosaic shower flower. After using the shower consistently for maybe two weeks (beginning of June) I noticed the marble tile stayed wet around the shower walls. I stopped using the shower for a few days and the tile dried up. I started using the shower again and same thing, the tile stays wet. Then, a month later I noticed a significant water leak in the ceiling directly below the shower. My plumber checked and there’s no leaking pipes. From the hole cut in the ceiling we can see one area that’s allowing water.
Reading through some of the questions and your comments, I can tell you the contractor did NOT wrap the curb, at least not completely. They did not caulk the corners/joints, just used grout.
I’m not expecting the contractor to be very helpful considering he has yet to acknowledge my concerns.
A leaking shower is a problem and the contractor owes you one that works. While the corners should be caulked that shouldn’t be what keeps a shower water tight. The shower should be watertight before the tile goes on. Obviously yours isn’t.
Marble getting wet isn’t necessarily a problem. It is a shower and marble does absorb water. Sealer can help but if you’re concerned about marble showing water absorption then I would recommend a porcelain tile instead of natural Stone.
I hope this works out well in the end. A new leaving shower is more common than you would guess.
I agree I am owed a leak proof shower but looks like the contractor will have to be compelled to make it right. Thanks
We are diying a roll-in shower so it has no curb. We are using the Wedi system. How would we do a flood test? We have a center drain if that makes a difference. And also, outside our shower area, we are planning to use drywall; like behind the toilet and for a sink backsplash. Is this acceptable? Or should we be using the hardieboard? Thanks so much. I think it’s amazing you respond to your posts! It’s so hard to find someone who will do that!
For the flood test, what you can do is install a scrap piece of Wedi board across the entrance with the Wedi glue. It only needs to be an inch or two tall. When the test is done you can pull the piece out and scrape down the glue.
Drywall is perfectly fine to install tile over as long as it’s not in a wet area. Behind the toilet and sink is fine.
If you’re tiling behind the toilet you’ll want to make sure that the toilet flange is installed a little more forward than normal. Sometimes the toilet won’t fit with the added thickness of the wall tile behind it.
Hi, my contractor wants to do CBU with the Kerdi membrane on the walls, but a traditional mortar shower floor (liner sandwiched between two layers of mud. Any advice on how to try these two systems together? Anything specific to watch out for?
This method can work but I’d rather see him do a complete Kerdi system so you get the Schluter warranty also.
Otherwise, it’s simply a traditional mud pan shower with expensive waterproofing on the walls.
There’s nothing particular to this method to watch out for but, in general, you want the workmanship to be good and the shower built properly.
Flood testing for leaks is always prudent, as well.
Thanks for the reply. I guess he just likes his traditional pan… plus there’s the added cost of the Kerdi drain if you use Kerdi on the floor. You’re supposed to get the Kerdi drain if you do mud and Kerdi membrane on the floor, right? Also, I’m not sure if this in your area of expertise, but I also have a question about insulation and vapour barriers behind the walls with Kerdi. One of my shower walls is on an exterior wall (no plumbing). I’m pretty sure the original construction is double brick, vapour barrier/slats, and drywall. So contractor has built a 3″ wall in front of the drywall to add insulation. Am I in danger of a vapour sandwich with vapour barrier next to the exterior brick? Should he remove the drywall? From the outside in, should it go double-brick, vapour-barrier, unfaced insulation, then CBU? Or is it okay to leave the drywall and just add some insulation between the old drywall and the CBU?
Yes, the Kerdi drains are $100(+/-) and there’s a little more Kerdi fabric involved.
As far as the vapor barrier, the way that you’ve put the order sounds right to me but the contractor is on site and would have a better understanding of the situation, I hope.
i recently had a shower tiled, the plumber installed a vinyl liner, it went roughly 6″ up the 3 walls and covered the shower the shower floor and dam (curb), he left the vinyl liner loose and draped over the curb, the person who put the tile in cut the vinyl liner where the shower floor meets the curb and I have doubts that he left the liner the 6″ up the wall, is there any way to repair this without taking out the tile floor and first row of tile on the walls?
If what you are saying is actually what actually happened then no, there’s no way of repairing short of tearing out the bottom of the shower. In fact, I think that you would know right away since I don’t think there’s any way that water won’t run out of the shower.
It’s a big problem if it’s cut inside the shower like that.
I have a shower/tub that is leaking behind the wall. Duroc was used for the walls. How do I find the leak without taking all the tiles and Duroc off the walls?
You need to try to isolate the different causes. Do you might try plugging the drain and filling with water that’s not from the shower pipes. If it doesn’t leak then that could indicate that it’s the plumbing.
If it’s a tile shower floor and there’s a problem with the tile then I think there’s going to be a major repair at a minimum.
I recently had my shower remodeled. New floor and walls. After using the shower twice, the room below the new shower has water leaking onto the ceiling. I don’t know where to start. I assumed the tile guy new what he was doing. I have no real details about how he did remodel. Where do I go from here?
Contacting the installer and having them fix it would be the best outcome at this point. Hopefully, they will be honorable with their warranty. Otherwise, there’s always legal action.
A warning: They may want to fix it by caulking the corners or something of that sort. Don’t let them. The shower should be completely waterproof before the tile and grout go in. The only way to fix it is going to be to remove the bottom part of the shower. But typically, they go for the easy fix and try to caulk things. This may work initially but doesn’t last.
Additionally, try to get on record how they waterproofed the shower and which shower method of construction that they use. Ideally, you would get this through email or text so that you have something on record in a worst-case scenario. You might also ask if a flood test was done and how it was conducted although I think it’s pretty obvious that one wasn’t’ performed.
Unfortunately, this is a more common occurrence than one would guess. Hopefully, things will work out ok in the end. Feel free to ask more questions as you get to know more details.
I considering using Schluter vs. Mudd for a floor pan. Drain is roughly centered. Shower pan is roughly 4×8. The largest Schluter pan system I am aware of is 48×72 kit. My understanding is the pan can be extended. The questions is how and best approach.
Also, I am concerned how to incorporate Schluter pan, waterproofing the curb and knee walls using Schluter. Desire is to build two 2×6 knee walls to set glass enclosure and door in between.
There are a few options on how to handle things. Firstly, in regards to the Kerdi shower pan: if your drain is centered, or you can make it center, then you’ll need to add an extension onto each end- 12 inches to each side. So you would need probably two extensions.
What’s interesting is that I can’t find any information about tray extensions for the Kerdi shower system. I was wanting to look up if they are sloped, or not. If Schluter doesn’t make them then you could look into the Hydroban system or the Wedi shower system. I highly recommend Wedi but if you want a system that has a fabric membrane instead of a foam panel then Hydoban would be a good choice.
Another way to do it is to use the foam shower tray and extend it with drypack mud. This way you would only be doing two small sections and you would save a little money.
And finally, you could move the shower pan to one side and put in a bench on the other side. This would give you a 6 ft shower pan with a 2 ft bench- no need for any extensions.
As far as building your shower, you would frame the 4×8 space. The knee walls would be wrapped in backer board and then wrapped in the Kerdi liner. Schluter makes preformed corners for both inside and outside corners and it would be a good idea to use them.
For the curb, you can build it out of wood, wrap the curb in a backer board, and then Kerdi liner; or use the preformed Schluter curbs instead. Both the curb and the tops of the knee walls should slope into the wet part of the shower by about 1/8 inch.
We had tiled shower remodeled two years ago. Lately we noticed water in floor in room next to the shower. I have cut holes in the sheet rock behind the shower and found that shower pan liner was slit open in the corner which makes the hardi board rot and the water slowly leaks thru the bottom and to the floor. I guess right thing to do is redo the shower pan completely but is there other option where this leak can be sealed with some type of special sealer ?
Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s a way to repair the liner once it’s installed like that.
Replacing the pan and the bottom 12-18 inches of tile is probably the minimum that could be done to ensure that it won’t continue to leak.
We had a new walk-in shower built downstairs maybe 6 months ago. Now it is very obvious that the shower floor and the shower wall are not connected along the back and the foot rest appears to be pulling away from the wall too. What could cause this and can it be easily fixed? Yes I plan to call the contractor but it’s always good to be armed with information. BTW the walls were mud and the pan was hot mopped. Some of the joints like along the side walls and the front barrier wall look fine.
If it’s mud and hot mopped and the contractors knew what they were doing (which is likely with mud and hot mop) then I’m not sure why it would be pulling in the corners unless maybe this was an addition? Have the tile person fix the corner joints with 100% silicone which is a flexible sealant. Then keep an eye on it.
I would say this is not likely leaking but that doesn’t mean that a leak is out of the question. If the bench was built out of concrete block and done after the waterproofing then it may just not be tied to the wall very well.
If the bench was built out of wood and wasn’t waterproofed over the top then that would be bad news indeed.
My not yet hired contractor tile man giving me an estimate replied to my concern about water going through the tile grout on the walls and wetting the durock on the walls. His reply was the thin set behind the tiles would make the Durock board waterproofs. Is this true?
Does red guard or some type of waterproofing have to be painted on the walls wherever the tile and grout will be?
I have Schluter waffle orange pad to use on the floor which is covered in Durock board. I believe he is planning on putting the schluter over thunder and then thunder over that and then the floor tile. Thank you here is roofing felt under the Durock floor. Does this sound right to you?
Gosh I’m so glad to have found your website before hiring someone to tile my bathroom and create a shower for me.
Thank you
I’m sorry but my phone inserted the word “thunder “ every time I wrote Thinset. I hope you understand Durock is on the floor now. He will put the Schluter waffle pad on the floor.
I am worried water will go through the grout, through the thinset and leak into the Durock board onto my studs and down to the joists. Please tell me about waterproofing.
Based on your post, it looks like some things are good and others are not so good. For starters, thinset does not make Durock waterproof. Rather, waterproofing will make Durock waterproof. There is some confusion on the matter of whether or not Durock, or any cement board, needs additional waterproofing. Here’s a post that I wrote on this very subject:
https://www.diytileguy.com/durock-cement-board-waterproof/
What has me a little more concerned is the cement board on the floor. You mentioned that the contractor will be installing Ditra (the waffle-y stuff) over cement board. That’s good. But then you had mentioned that there is roofing felt under the Durock- that’s not good. Cement boards, like Durock, need thinset underneath them to function properly and keep tile and grout joints from cracking- and this is in addition to fasteners like roofing nails or cement board screws.
If you have roofing felt underneath then it’s highly unlikely that there’s thinset underneath. You might look over the instructions for Durock prior to having a conversation with your contractor. You can find them here at USG’s site: https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/en/products-solutions/products/tile-and-flooring-installation/backerboards/usg-durock-cement-board.html
I am getting ready to install USG ultralight backboard on the shower walls. The 4′ x 4′ pan is prefab marble. Should a 3″ liner/flashing be installed against the studs before screwing in the backerboard? If your answer is yes, then the only material I could make work is aluminum because any other material would be too think and cause the backerboard to jut out too far at the bottom. Would aluminum be ok?
Also, the shower is 2 walls in a corner. with the bathtub behind it…small knee wall separating it. The shower head is on the wall facing the tub. In your opinion, do you think it would be ok not to install shower glass (one piece on knee wall and glass panel/shower door on other side)? I’m asking because cost of glass/installation will be about $1,500. If your answer is no, would either installing rainfall shower head in ceiling and/or only install glass on knee wall keep water splash minimal?
It looks like USG Durock Ultralight BackerBoard is their foam board which I have not had the opportunity to use yet. However, if it’s a foam board then there shouldn’t be any need for additional moisture/vapor protection for a normal residential shower.
As far as the glass enclosure, this is more of a personal preference than anything. My personal opinion is that the shower without any glass will have a good amount of cold air around- too much for my tastes. Your best bet is to consult with the glass installer and get their opinion.
If you do decide to just get a panel on the half wall then you might ask them how to “future proof” it so that you can simply add onto it later if you decide to get a hinged door down the road so that you don’t have to remove the half wall and start all over again.
Thanks. Another question. I have read different opinions on what diameter hole to cut for the shower valve, anywhere from 2 3/4″, 3″, 5″, 6″. The round piece that came with the shower valve is 6″. I made an access door to the valve located in the adjacent closet, but in case there are problems removing the valve if needed, I want to have large enough hole to access it from the front. The instructions with the valve do not indicate what size hole to cut. What size hole do you recommend?
Usually, you’re supposed to cut around the rings so if the ring is 6 inches then that’s how big the hole should be.
6 inches seems a bit big to me- maybe it’s a Kohler? Make sure you check how big the trim is that’s going on over it. Not only do you want the trim to cover the hole but you want the seal on the back to seal around the hole.
The hole should be cut small enough for that to happen.
I called the manufacturer and I also called the store (installer was there when I called) that sold the ultralight foam board and asked the following questions:
!) There is a 1″ lip on top of the prefab pan that the board sits on and the tile overlaps past it down to the next ledge. Should the board sit directly on the flange with silicone underneath it? The mfg. said there should be 1/8 to 1/4 in. gap and USG silicone between board and flange. Installer at the store said put bead of USG silicone on bottom of board and install it flush against the pan/wipe of excess (no gap).
2) Should there be small gap between the boards after bottom row installed? Mfg. said to gap and put bead of USG silicone between/wipe off excess and then install 5″wide USG band over the seam using thinset. I asked why not just butt against directly against board and he replied it helps insure no leakage due to human error. The installer at the store said to butt directly against the board using USG silicone and the 5″ wide band is not needed.
3) Should there be small gap where board meets ceiling or install flush. Mfg. said gap and put the USG silicone between the boards. He said this is because ceiling can move due to house settling. Installer said to install flush using USG silicone.
The answers from the mfg. and the installer contradict each other for all the questions I asked. Which ones do you agree with? My gut instincts are to go by installers answers for 1 and 2 and use mfg answer for no. 3.
I didn’t think to ask them this question…should there be a gap/put silicone or flush the board/seal with silicone, where it meets the stud wall on one side?
Other:
1) One side of the shower the tile/backer board/thinset will be visible on edge, and will end approx. 1″ from edge of door to toilet area, which I estimate will be 1.25″ thick. If there is not 1.25 wide schluter strip available, what is best way to cover the edge? Some options I’ve considered are using 1.25″ wide quarter round or feathering from the edge to the door using joint compound (not sure how that would look).
2) For the floor in the bathroom, I’ve installed only cement backer board. One side of the tile from the shower wall will be installed approx. 4 in. past the pan until reaches 1 in. before edge of door in toilet area. Should the floor tile go all the way against the wall so that the shower tile will be directly on top of the floor tile, or should the shower tile go all the way down to the backer board and the floor tile go directly against the shower tile?
Thanks,
My shower pan is made of prefab marble and it was installed without a liner underneath it. It would be a lot of trouble/work to remove it to install a liner because drain is installed, which I can remove/replace, but the biggest problem is the pan is extremely heavy, but now is the time to install a liner if it’s your recommendation to do that before the shower walls are tiled. I’m not sure if the marble is porous thus requiring a liner or if not if it somehow gets cracked. One option I’m considering is sealing the pan with a water sealer. What’s your recommendation…remove the pan and install a liner or seal it with a water sealer, or other option? I don’t know name of manufacturer…I purchased the pan off craigslist. Thanks.
I don’t know that I’ve seen a pan like this but if the pan is porous and absorbs water then sealer isn’t a solution.
Unfortunately, the only real solution would be to go backwards. It’s hard to believe that they make a prefab, porous marbe shower pan with a proper drain connection though.
Also I don’t see how just putting a liner underneath it would solve your problems either. But I may not understand how the pan works.
I’ll tackle your other question later this morning.
For the first three questions I would be inclined to go with the manufacturer instructions. I think it’s a good thing to get sealant in the gaps although I don’t know how necessary it is with banding going over the surface.
Everything that is on a wet area should be sealed. Everything that’s covered by tile should have tape/thinset and/or banding and/or sealant.
1. I’m not sure as to why you would be so far away from the wall with the tile? Typically, 1/2 inch foam backer board will like up with 1/2 inch drywall. But it doesn’t sound like this is the case. I’m not sure what I’m missing though.
2. It doesn’t really matter which tile overlaps which. Usually it looks better to have the wall tile sit on to of the floor tile.
I called the company who is going to come to my house to install the knee wall cap to ask if the cap will be pushed under the backer board and tile or installed flush against it and the rep. said flush against it. Seems like it should go under the board and the tile…much the same way as in your prev. response to me if the floor tile should go under the tile/backer board on the wall or flush…you replied under. The rep. said maybe I should hire a builder to answer my questions…she said they only install showers, not tile. Maybe she said the cap should be flush if that’s the way they’re installed in their showroom since easier to do. So should cap be installed under board and tile or flush to it?
Other questions:
1) What is best material for knee wall cap…marble, granite, quartz, soap stone, or other?
2) I told the rep. that I wanted the knee wall cap to overhang the knee wall inside the shower 1/2″. She said the cap has to be flush to the tile so the shower frame will go straight up and then over 2″ to sit in the middle of the knee cap. Is it common practice to have the knee wall glass be installed in the middle of the knee wall cap and the cap to be flush with the tile on the knee wall? Just seems to me wouldn’t look right for the cap not to overhang the tile by 1/2″.
I was planning to use the USG ultralight foam board as backer for the knee cap (it is a 2 x 4) and for the knee wall facing the shower but realized the edges of the board are not waterproof. I have some Schluter Ditra and some Schluter membane:
1) for the cap, a 2 x 4, would it be better to use schluter Ditra as backer for the marble cap or use the Kerdi membrane?
2) for the knee wall, approx, 4 ft wide x 18″ tall, would it be better to use durock cement board or a sheet of plywood as first layer? I read the ditra meant for only floors, but since it’s a small area to cover, do you recommend the ditra over the first layer you recommended (plywood or cement board) or use the kerdi membrane?
For the cap and knee wall, I plan on using thinset to the backer materil…Maipei ultralight pro.
Regarding #2 from my previous post, I just realized I won’t be able to use the Ditra on the knee wall because that along with a backer board would cause the tile to jut out too far past flange on shower pan, so I’ll just use cement board/and install kerdi membrane and roll it over the knee cap…sound good?
Hi Mike, there’s a lot here and I’ll be able to get to this by tomorrow morning. Thanks for your patience.
A solid surface can is usually installed under the tile but always over backer board. However, it doesn’t have to be installed under the tile, rather, it could be tied and the cap cut to fit exactly.
Cutting the tile around the cap leaves a little bit of room for adjustment.
As far as it being flush vs an overhang, the sales lady is correct: the overhang will interfere with a glass enclosure.
So one alternative is to install the cap flush with the tile. Another is to put a notch in the solid surface cap exactly where the glass panel will go.
Sometimes the glass installers will do this for an additional charge and other times it may have to be done by someone else, the fabricators, the tile person, general contractor, homeowner, etc.
Questions 1: in order of best to worst- quartz, granite, marble, soapstone.
I’m considering the best to be most durable and least porous.
Question 2: answered above.
I don’t know if Kerdi is approved to go over plywood but I know that it’s not approved to go directly over a 2×4. So the 2×4 will need some sort of backer board over it prior to bring waterproofed.
You want to use Kerdi as opposed to Ditra for waterproofing.
For the half wall you can install plywood, especially if your looking to add additional strength to the wall. But the plywood should get a backer board over it. Otherwise, install tile backer instead of plywood and waterproof from there.
Good!
I hired a tile company to do a shower expansion remodel 5’x4.5’x9′. All is left is grouting the wall and floor tiles and final plumbing. A mud preslope and PVC liner was installed. Passed a flood test and inspector clearing it. At this time and after reading your article, I was comfortable that the plumber completed proper waterproofing. It is what the tiler has done is making me question the waterproof integrity. Durock was installed with the bottom sitting right against the liner (I’m concerned the Durock will puncture the liner in time). He was going to screw Durock below the curb line until I stopped him and told him to go higher (lowest screw is around 4.5″). Not all Durock edges were supported with 2x4s (tiler said that existing studs are close enough to edges to support Durock). Four smaller 12″x24″ Durock pieces were used on one area because he ran out of larger piece (located on top corner so not concerned this area will get wet but is it okay to support large tiles). Mesh tape was used on seams and a thin coating of thinset applied on the mesh tapes and screws (I found out later that drywall mesh tape was used. I also felt that the Durock was not flat especially on one of the seams). 2 coats of Redgard applied on Durock. 2nd slope mud pan over PVC liner and over wire lathe on curb (thickness about 1.5″ thick at drain but barely an inch on certain areas close to wall which decreased the slope compared to preslope and is it thick enough to prevent cracking). Cinder block bench was installed over final mud pan. Bench covered with Durock and Redgard applied. Cured mud pan around drain was lowered with a grinder to accomodate the travertine tumbled cobblestone (drain grate is still a little lower than the installed floor tile). Prefab niches installed with only one or two side of niche screwed in wall studs (tiler said back is against drywall and niche will not move). Caulk applied where niche meet the Durock and on screw holes and Redgard applied on niche edges. Tiles installed directly on niche without Redgard or roughing. 12×24 porcelain tiles on walls with a mosaic accent tiles. Thinset was applied on circular pattern on some areas and straight patterrn on others areas of Durock and you can see no thinset on the some edges of large tiles. No tile spacers were used and wall tiles installed against or as close to each other. Grout was applied on mosaic tiles to make the tiles firm for easier install (I’m concerned that final grout will not stick on old grout, tiler said it won’t be an issue). Stone tiles were pulled from its plastic backing to install on the edges of the floor. Most tiles look good in appearance but is it stable? Is there enough spacing? Will I have tiles and grout coming off later? Knowing that the tiles and grout are not waterproof, is my PVC liner still intact after all the traffic before mud was laid on top? Am I stressing out too much that I will have water leaking on my kitchen from above?
From your description, I don’t see anything too alarming. It doesn’t sound like all the “best practices” were used but I don’t see anything that stands out as wrong either. In fact, a good amount of it was done properly.
The lack of grout joints stands out to me as not a good thing. With a 12×24, it’s highly unlikely that it is the sort of tile that is designed to be butted to each other. You might mention this to the installer and maybe look up if this particular tile company has a recommended grout joint for their tile.
My contractor lined the shower with PVC. I insisted on a flood test. It failed. He bonded two sheets of liner with silicone caulk – could this be the problem not using the recommended sealant? Also, now what should we do? Pull out the entire liner and let it dry out before reinstalling using the correct recomneded sealant?
Thank you for your help.
Mary
Thank you for you input. Made me feel better. So, the PVC 40mil liner is strong enough that the Durock bottom edges have a low chance of puncturing it? I did mention to the installer that it seems like a lack of joint space. His explanation is that it’s the shower wall and the closer the tiles are the better to block water. I asked to many questions that he refused to finish the job. The company is sending another tiler to do the grouting and install the sill.
First of all, good on you for insisting on a flood test. It’s not fun to have them fail but your experience is exactly why they should be done.
Yes, the incorrect sealant was used. Is that the reason that it failed? Maybe. But there is more than one way that it could leak.
I have some concerns that this contractor will be able to perform the rest of the tiling work. However, not because of the failed flood test, for this does not indicate a bad contractor (necessarily).
The fact that they bonded the liner together with silicone and then weren’t going to flood test this shows either a lack of good judgement or ability. It also could be both.
I would proceed very carefully from this point if you want to continue with this contractor. It’s very early in the process and ideally you want the right contractor to install from the beginning.
To answer your other question, I would remove the liner and start over with the correct glue.
It’s impossible for me to know if the corner will puncture. When I was doing those kinds of pans I would always round the corner of the cement board for this very reason.
But is it too much pressure? Is the corner too sharp? I don’t have a way to determine this.
Is it theoretically possible? I would think so. But that doesn’t mean that it’s going to fail.
I checked the studs with a level before installing the USG ultralight foam board and all was level. However, for some reason, after installation, there is a small gap in one middle area of the boards (bowed inward 2/16″) and another about 1/16″ gap at the top of the some of the boards using a level a 6 ft. against the boards. Also, in some areas, the boards lip out over the bottom of the flange on the pre-fab shower pan about 1/16″ to 2/16″. Do you think ok to go ahead and install the tiles and adjust for the gaps with the thinset or should I remove the boards and shim the 2×4 studs so the boards are perfectly level after installation? I suspect one of gaps may be caused by a metal plate I put on a stud for the pvc water line for shower valve. I have two 3 ft. wide rows installed…will be an inconvenience to have to remove them but can be done if that is your recommendation. And if it is your recommendation to remove the boards can I reuse them as long as I put silicone on the holes before screwing them (using same holes)?
I suggest that you keep on going and adjust it with thinset. Over the internet, it’s easy to say “no, it has to be removed and begin again” but the fact is that it’s very difficult to get backer board perfectly flat.
I like to plane down the spots on studs where the nail plates will go for this very reason, but it’s still difficult to get the backer perfectly flat even with doing that.
Thanks,
Another question…I read that the tile council recommends staggering tiles in thirds for large format tiles to help prevent lippage. I’m using 12×24 large format tiles…it’s less time consuming to stagger in halves. I am using very high quality porcelain tiles. Do you think there’s much chance of lippage staggering in halves?
Regarding the lippage question, I’m laying the rows horizontally.
Yes, the recommendation is to offset them 33% but the other part of the “rule” is that 50% is ok if the homeowner approves.
If you’re the homeowner and you’re installing your own tile then you can run it how you like.
But always check the warpage of the tile before you begin. I’ve had quite a bit of variation from batch to batch of the exact same line of tile before.
With 12×24 tiles, I’ve done a 50% offset more than I haven’t but it’s always discussed ahead of time with the specific tile that will be installed.
We had a tiled shower put in about 14 months ago and everything was great. After about a year, water started leaking into the dining room on the floor below. I plugged up the drain and filled the basing and water started pouring out into the dining room. I hind sight, we don’t remember the contractor sealing the grout. Could this be the problem and is it too late to seal it now?
Unfortunately, you have much bigger problems than simply sealing the grout. A shower should be built waterproof before there’s any tile or grout installed over it.
I liken sealer to something like Scotchguard for carpet. Yes, it helps but no, it isn’t a waterproof membrane and it isn’t miraculous.
It’s quite likely that the shower will have to be completely torn out and redone. If this is the case, make sure a flood test is done on the shower prior to tiling.
Sorry for your troubles and hopefully the original contractor will warranty their installation.
@Mike – Clients like you are the reason I’ve written into my contracts “All materials will be installed according to the manufacture’s specification(s) OR the guidelines outlined by the Tile Council of North America (TCNA). Any deviations from said specifications at the homeowner’s or builder’s request will void our warranty. All requests for changes to existing installations that already adhere to the aforementioned guidelines will be billed at $125 per hour.”
There is nothing wrong and I highly recommend being diligent in overseeing all construction processes as they are taking place. With that said, I’ve encountered clients that want an explanation for every portion of the installation process. I accommodate all reasonable requests, but when inquiries begin to add a significant amount of time to the installation, I have to put an end to it and that typically doesn’t end up well no matter how diplomatic I try to be.
I’m the professional, that’s why I was hired. By all means, check my work. Question me if you find someone on the internet that does things differently than I do. If you stop me at every stage and ask me to explain why I used a particular method or material, my answers are going to get shorter and shorter, as the commodities that I sell are time and expertise.
Best of luck with your tile installation!
There is indeed a line between being informed and micromanaging. I encourage homeowners to learn and inform themselves and even specify “what” they want in their homes. But when it comes to “how” to do it I prefer to be left alone.
Hello, I would like to know with large tiles such as a 12″x24″ what the minimum width could be between the tiles for the grout seam and would you recommend using a sanded grout or does it matter. Thank you, Steve
Hello, I would like to know with large tiles such as a 12″x24″ what the minimum width could be between the tiles
for the grout seam and would you recommend using a sanded grout or does it matter. Thank you, Steve —-
Sorry, I forgot to mention that this application would be on a shower wall, thanks again
The minimum grout joint is 1/16th. There are some technical clauses which could require a joint bigger than 1/16th but I won’t get into those.
The short answer on sanded vs unsanded grout is that you want to use unsanded grout if your joint is 1/16th of an inch. If it’s 1/8″ or bigger then sanded would be the way to go.
There’s been a lot of technology in the grout world in the last few years. I would encourage you to read my post on grouts. I personally won’t use convention sanded or nonsanded grouts anymore because there are much better options.
https://www.diytileguy.com/what-kind-of-grout-do-i-need/
Hello,
Thanks for the post, it is very helpful.
We are having an issue with our shower and I wanted to see what you think. Excuse the length of the post!
Our house is new construction and we bought 1 year ago. We have an all tile shower with a two wall frameless glass enclosure. We noticed water started leaking outside of the shower approximately 2 inches above the ground on the outside of the curb corner which pools on the bathroom floor within minutes of turning the shower on. On the inside of the shower, there is a long crack along the grout line that ran the length of the horizontal and vertical joint of the curb. It seemed that water was entering the curb through this crack and running the length of the curb and found a hole at the corner of the outside curb where it could leak out. We tried to get the builder to come out and have it fixed since it would be an installation issue on a new house. He tried to get his subcontractors to come out but they say it was during the busy season so it was delayed.
Fast forward a few weeks and we noticed the outside curb tile where the leak was occurring cracked. We also noticed that the tiles along the vertical sides of the curb appear more fish mouthed than we remembered them. I started to worry that when water was getting under the tile it may have found a hole through the water proofing layer that allowed water to get to the wood. I’m assuming this caused the wood to swell which broke the tile and caused the tiles to no longer be flush. The most likely source of the issue in my opinion may be from the anchor bracket on the top of the curb that the glass is attached to. I’m thinking the screw from this bracket may have penetrated the waterproofing layer which allowed the water to get into the wood. I’m being told the water proofing layer is a 2 chemical paint on layer.
We finally were able to get the tile company to come out and he agreed the tile looks off. He wasn’t for sure what the problem is but also thought a possibility may be water getting to the wood maybe from that screw in the glass anchor. He put in an acrylic based caulking to stop the water from getting in and applied this all over all joints of the curb. We haven’t had the water pooling outside the shower since this happened. He did mention this was just a temporary fix and there may be a bigger issue lying underneath all of this, but we couldn’t be sure.
I emailed the builder again and let him know of this. He had the waterproofing company come out to do a leak test. The next morning half of the water was gone but they said the leak test passed because there was no water staining the ceiling underneath the bathroom (garage ceiling). They said the water was soaking through the tile and mortar bed but was probably going on top of the waterproofing layer into the weep holes of the drain. It didn’t make sense to me why they would put a piece of tape to mark the water level and then when half the water was gone say it still passed the test, but I went along. Does this seem ok?
Now, their remedy is just to replace the cracked tile and regrout the curb. To me this is a superficial fix that may cover up the fact that something more insidious already happened underneath the tile. They say the tiles may just have been laid with poor craftsmanship and the tile at the corner may have cracked because it’s a cut piece. I don’t think this makes sense. In my conversation with the tile and waterproofing guy they both said the issue may be with that screw in the glass anchor, but when they talked to the builder they said they weren’t sure what the issue was. The builder just wants to proceed with the cosmetic fix. He says if they take everything apart and there is an issue then the subcontractor at fault would pay, but if they can’t find an issue then they aren’t sure who would pay for the repairs. He wants me to confirm that I would pay for it, but this seems ridiculous to me.
What do you think? I have a lot of pictures as well, but I don’t see a way of attaching on this site.
Thanks!
The problem may very well be the anchor for the glass panel. However, there’s really no way of knowing that. I guarantee the glass company thinks it’s a tile issue and the tile company thinks it’s a glass issue.
One thing is certain: Tile and grout are cosmetic and not part of the waterproofing of your shower. So if a tile cracks or the caulking is damaged then your whole shower won’t leak.
Don’t let these guys do a cosmetic bandaid fix. This will either temporarily stop the problem or worse- slow it down so that the damage will reappear in the future after the warranty period has expired.
What you deserve is a properly built shower that is water-tight. Right now, you don’t have that. No matter whose fault it is the builder of the home is responsible to deliver this to you. Let those guys sort out who’s at fault and who pays for what. Put the pressure on the builder.
I had a contractor install a new shower two years ago during a renovation of my master bath. He used a prefabricated, 1-piece “Tile-Ready” pan with an integral curb. The top of the curb is tiled with 2″x12″ bullnose tiles, with a grout line running down the middle, and grout lines between each tile. We have a frameless glass door and sidelight on top of the curb. All joints where the glass meets the tile are sealed.
Over time, the grout lines started to “weep” water on the outside of the shower enclosure. If you pour water on the grout lines inside the enclosure, water will pool on the floor outside of the enclosure. I know that the curb and pan are one piece, with no holes, so it seems that the grout joints themselves are conducting the water to the outside. Is there an easy way to fix this? I don’t have the money to replace the tile and door, so I’m hoping there is a corrective action that can be taken, rather than replacement.
I understand what you are saying and I appreciate that you did a good job of explaining it. Also, your conclusion is probably correct- it’s weeping out from the tile or grout joints somehow.
It sure seems to me like there would have to be a hole or crack somewhere. Maybe try to tap on the tiles and see if any of them sound loose (hollow)? I’m also curious about where the center grout joint is in relation to the glass enclosure?
With what little I know about the Tile Redi system I believe that you are on the right track. Keep trying to pinpoint where the leak is and narrow down the possibilities. I think you’re going to find a pin hole or loose tile or some other similar culprit.
Hello:
I have 3 questions: Do I need to put plastic sheeting on outside facing wall for vapor barrier? If using Redgard I understand a plastic vapor barrier is not necessary.
Do you recommend using Regard on Hardiebacker walls for waterproofing? Is it necessary?
Lastly, I was careful to install a preslope, PVC liner and final mudbed but did not do water test. Opps. I have not put tile on floor yet. Should I Redgard the mud bed or is that asking for moisture to get trapped between PVC and Redgard.
Thanks!
For waterproofing your shower you want either plastic sheeting or Redgard- not both. If the question that you are asking is “Do I need plastic sheeting on an exterior wall for vapor management of my home” then I don’t have the answer to that question. But as far as it pertains to shower waterproofing you only need one or the other.
I would rather see Redgard used for shower waterproofing instead of plastic on 99% of the showers that are built.
As far as a flood test, I figure your shower floor is either waterproof or it isn’t. Adding Redgard to the shower floor and not tying it into the flange on the drain doesn’t make a shower waterproof and can cause issues with trapped water. So if you feel like the shower will hold water as is then I would just leave it alone and let it do it’s thing.
Hello and thank you for much for this site.
I had the master bath remodeled about 7 years ago. The shower has a fiberglass floor or shower pan with tile for the 3 walls. Two years ago the woodwork outside the shower was getting soft, after inspection and digging around the wood and drywall was rotting. The tile guy said the curb was the culprit so I had a carpenter rip out the shower doors and install a new curb and fix the wall. The tile guy also said I should buy a custom made door that he said was superior to the one I purchased from Lowes. Well this was probably BS but I didn’t want anymore trouble so I did. Last year the ceiling of my kitchen, which is below the shower, was showing water damage. I had the tile guy, plumber and a friend who is very handy look at it and nobody could figure out what was causing it so we re-caulked everything and sealed the grout and repaied the ceiling. We did do a leak test and it was fine.
Today I see that the floor next to the outside curb is turning slightly brown and the grout is starting to crumble. Nobody seems to know where this water is coming from but I suspect it is from the curb because the guy used wood and I’m not sure if he lined or waterproofed it as I knew nothing about shower installation, well I know now after watching hundreds of youtube videos trying to find a way to remedy this, years old now, reacurring problem. I also don’t think the curb is sloped enough. I don’t know what to do, I don’t trust any of the people that I used now except my plumber who said the fixtures and pipes are fine and he also said that is why he likes and will only used fiberglass one piece showers.
I don’t know what to do. I want to rip the entire thing out and get a one piece fiberglass stall but after looking endlessly in stores and online I cannot find anything for the irregular size which is why I had the whole thing remodeled by professionals to begin with.
I’m sorry for such a long post I’m so frustrated and don’t know how to remedy this. I really appreicate this website and the sharing of your knowledge.
Thanks,
Sue
Unfortunately, this isn’t uncommon. What’s unusual about your situation, though, is that you have a fiberglass shower pan. Usually, rotting wood and curbs are the result of improperly built tile shower floors. This isn’t to say that fiberglass shower pans can’t have problems. However, this seems to follow along the lines of a poorly built tile shower playbook.
What I know is that a shower door isn’t part of the shower waterproofing system. Yes, it helps contain the water but not having a premium door isn’t going to cause the walls to rot. Plenty of people use curtains and those work just fine also.
The exception to the above is when a glass shower enclosure is screwed into a tile curb and not well sealed. This can cause damage to the home but, again, the quality of door isn’t a factor.
So when you sealed and caulked the inside of the shower this was a temporary fix. It may have worked at the time but tile and grout should never be relied upon as a waterproofing system.
If you wanted to remove part of the ceiling in the kitchen then this could give you more information as to what is the cause of the leak. Usually, fiberglass shower pans don’t leak unless there is a crack or something. Typically, it’s a plumbing drain issue or water is escaping through the walls above the shower pan and getting behind it.
Unless it’s something like the drain under the shower leaking my guess would be that the shower will probably have to be rebuilt. I understand wanting a one-piece unit but you do have to have a way to get the entire unit up into the bathroom. Depending on the size of the shower and they layout of the house that can be an issue.
A shower that is properly built before the tile is installed will work. It should be flood tested and be installed according to industry standards and manufacturer’s instructions. But ultimately it’s a decision that you will have to make.
By the way, I’m assuming that your fiberglass shower pan has a built-in curb. If it doesn’t, and you have a wood framed curb with maybe tile over it? then this would add additional factors into the equation.
Thank you.
My plumber checked the drain and did a flood test and both passed the test. The fiberglass pan was 32×46, he, the construction guy, ordered the wrong size so in an effort to make the shower a bit bigger he gave me a 3 inch curb constructed of wood. I just checked and there isn’t a proper pitch. I don’t have a level but took a marble and set it on the curb and it just sat there. The wood is tiled over so it seems the water just sits there and eventually weeps through? I really appreciate your help. I think I might have to rip out the fiberglass pan and curb and build a new one properly or would it be less expensive to just scrap the entire shower and start from scratch? I don’t know where I can find someone who knows what they are doing. You wouldn’t happen to be in Ohio would you? LOL
The extension curb that was built is the likely culprit and the main problem I would guess is that it’s not built correctly. My hunch is that the problems extend well beyond slope issues and that the curb wasn’t waterproof to begin with. The curb should be waterproof and sloped before it ever sees tile.
For contractor referrals, I recommend the NTCA members list: https://www.tile-assn.com/search/custom.asp
and the certified installer list: https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/find-certified-tile-installers
Please keep in mind that those are simply a place to start and aren’t substitutes for doing due diligence.
Was it done by a guy with a red beard???
I just purchased a one story house that was built in 2014. Recently the shower head was inadvertently pointed towards the niche in the shower prior to me entering the shower. This caused water to leak through the shower wall and exit through the base of the garage wall which is opposite the shower wall. Even though this is not a shower pan leak, the water should still not penetrate the shower walls, correct? There is a builder’s warranty on the home and I want to be forearmed in case they tell me that this not abnormal.
I am not a Tile Guy, nor do I play one on the Internet, but let me take a shot at this— no way could that be considered normal.
It’s absolutely wrong. It’s assumed that a shelf, or niche, in a shower is going to get wet and it should be built accordingly.
Accordingly means that it needs to be waterproofed. Waterproofing is done behind the tile.
The most likely “solution” they will propose is to caulk and seal the tile. This is an unacceptable fix and would simply mask the problem. It wouldn’t solve anything.
An appropriate solution is to remove the tile in and around the niche and rebuild it with a topical waterproofing (something like Redgard).
The waterproofing needs to be flashed around the outside of the niche to be effective.
Make sure that you take photos of the process. This could very well turn into a can of worms.
When you’re right, you’re right! And you’re 100% correct.
Thanks for participating in the discussion. ?
Hello and thank you for an informative site.
We purchased a 1967 built home 3 years ago and hired out a complete remodel. The issue we’re having is the master shower done during the remodel. It has subway tiled walls and a tile floor consisting of smaller octagon tiles. The shower was hot mopped sealed all around and a curb with sliding glass shower doors mounted on it. The curb was built with the same tiles used as the bathroom floor with 2 small grout lines.
Since new, we noticed white mineral deposits gathering at the grout line at various spots where the floor meets the curb. I brushed them off last year and used siliconized caulk by the grout manufacturer to make everything look nice. It didn’t take long before the deposits to push the caulking up and look terrible. Finally I placed my finger on one of the areas and it was wet. I called the contractor and shared my concern and asked him to go under and check the subfloor and it was dry thankfully. He then used clear silicone caulk all around the glass enclosure hardware and pressed some into the small grout lines on top of the curb.
I let it cure a few days, and showered only to be wet again in the same area. It is definitely coming from behind the tiles on the curb.
Is it time for them to remove/rebuild the curb? I did not see or take pictures of the original curb build. If so, how should they rebuild it for a leak free build? I believe there is hot mop material on the inside of the curb inside the shower area.
Thank you for any help.
If the curb is made out of wood and compromised you’ll likely see swelling at the grout joints and cracking. One possibility is that water is getting in underneath the tile and not making it underneath the waterproofing layer.
This may simply be an efflorescence issue. It’s hard to say. You might want to do a little research on efflorescence and see if there’s a sealer that could help with the problem.
But definitely keep an eye on it because is the waterproofing is compromised then you’ll want to handle things sooner rather than later.
Thank you.
Since he silicon caulked the grout lines on the curb I’ve noticed the water just sits on top off the curb all day inside rather than being absorbed into the grout so it looks improperly sloped. I had hoped it was just an efflorescence issue but after a shower it is wet to the touch on the grout line outside of the enclosure where the curb and floor join.
I’m pretty certain this will result in a tear down/rebuild scenario of this shower.
That said, what are the proper steps of building a curb with wood involved? I will be interviewing a few new contractors and need to be educated. I see now that slope is critical as water sitting there all day can only result in another failure.
Let’s say the wood frame is in place and properly sloped. The new contractor may opt towards a liner rather than a hot mop and that’s fine. What materials go on top of the wood frame which keeps it water tight before tiling again? I really would like to know how you would build it if it were your home.
Assuming all goes well with the new tile guy, now the glass installer drills into his work. What precautions should he take to prevent water migration? I get it that clear silicone should be used around the frame; at least that makes sense to me. Perhaps shooting some caulk into the drilled holes as well?
This time around I plan on having much more of a presence/involvement with this project.
Thank you for any assistance.
Rebuilding just the curb can be tricky. The issue at hand is how to tie the new waterproofing in with the old. I can’t see it happening with a liner or anything other than hot mop.
If only the curb is fixed then I think you have to insist on a flood test where the drain is plugged and water is filled up to the top of the curb. This will test the new curb seam that ties in with the previous hot mop.
A better way of doing it is to rebuild the bottom end of the shower to about 18 inches high on the walls. Then a liner can extend up the walls above the curb and also extend over the curb. Many times it can be done with one sheet of shower pan liner and no seams.
The corners over the curb usually need to be cut and they should have a preformed corner flashing glued over the cuts. Otherwise, all corners are folded.
The curb should be done with mud and lath. If anyone wants to nail cement board into the curb my advice is don’t hire them.
The concept of a shower pan is to install a waterproof liner with little to no cuts. Then once it’s installed and flood tested there should be no cuts or punctures through the liner until you get 3 inches past the top of the curb.
So my opinion is that a liner is preferable to hot mop if you are starting over. If you are trying to patch just the curb then hot mop is probably the only way. Hot mop is pretty much just a California thing at this point.
For the shower glass, it’s best if you can find an installer that won’t drill into the curb. Some installers, and some doors, require that the curb be drilled into. If this is the case then they usually fill the penetrations with silicone.
I’m having a new shower pan installed. Attached are pics which you can view by clicking on the link or copying and pasting it into your browser’s address bar:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/brl9k2ofga3nofk/AABV2f4toEssgIu3RSD3aTP9a?dl=0
.I’m concerned that from everything I’ve researched on how to do a rubber liner correectly, sealing the corners using the liner manufacturers preformed patches is important; there should be no nail penetrations on the inside or top of the curb, form the curb with lath and mortar–not out of cement board nailed onto the curb, etc…The installer says he’s done hundreds the way you see in the photos and plans on covering the curb/liner with Durock nailed into it and then sealed with RedGard. He says he has never had one leak. But he’s only 29 years old and I’m concerned that in 10, 15 or 20 years it could leak and he’s likely not going to be around. The old lead liner lasted almost 65 years. Is it unreasonable to expect a rubber lined paan to last 40 years? And what is the typical cost to do a mortar shower pan? Please comment on the pictures attached. REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR ADVICE–THANKS!
It looks like the link that you included set off the spam alarm and thats why this wasn’t showing.
The curb shouldn’t be punctured. If the installer insists then have him show you a drawing, or something, that backs up his position.
Spoiler: he won’t find anything. He’s going to have to do it correctly or I would advise moving on to someone else.
I made two mistakes when roughing in our walk-in shower. 1: I installed 2 screws 1 inch above the final mud bed floor which punctured the liner and 2: I sealed the Durock seams with Mapei Mortar which I now realize is not waterproof. My construction in basic: studs, Visqueen, Durock and eventually tile. Is there any way to repair to two holes without ripping out the Durock and mud bed? I was thinking about injecting the seam glue into the screw holes and installing the screws. How about the seams? Roll on waterproofing or just a coat of real mortar over it?
Thanks
I wound up busting up the final mud bed, removing the lower sheets of Durock and replacing the liner to be safe. I’m still not sure what to do about the mastic used to seal the remaining seams (I’ll use mortar when reinstalling the lower sections). Also my shower is a square with one corner cut off for the curb. This leaves interior 45 degree corners. Can I fold this 40 mil liner inside the corner and over the curb or do they make 45 degree interior corner patches? If they do I have not found them.
Thanks
Unfortunately, the best way is to remove the Durock and patch the liner.
For the seams, thinset and mesh tape is the best way to treat them. After that, liquid waterproofing could be applied over both Durock board the seams.
But if you have plastic behind the board then, a lot of times, waterproofing isn’t a good idea.
This is a good question and you have to cut the liner. What I do is fold the liner at the 45 and cut it on top of the curb so that it folds over. You’ll have to take a scrap piece of liner and make your own patch out of it. The patch would get glued to the liner.
I am building my own walk in shower by removing the tub and replacing all rotted and damaged wall boards and 2 x 4. I have a window above my tub and that’s how water got behind the wall by the shower water collecting on the window sill. I am building my own pan and I have reviewed many how to videos on how to build a shower pan. I have reviewed Bob Doyle’s videos on how to install a shower pan. I tend to agree with him. I can’t see the reasoning behind building a pan with the liner sandwiched between two layers of cement using the pre-slop method. I have not read or have been shown proof of failure by installing the liner first, then installing the cement on top of the liner. I suspect that as long as the liner is installed properly over the one and a half inch wood floor and over the curb, that there will not be a failure. What are your thoughts?
There’s more than one way to build a shower and installers will typically favor one method, or product, over others.
But, done properly, a shower with a liner sandwiched in between two layers of a sand/cement mix is a proper method. Some will argue that it’s the best way and others will argue that it isn’t. But those are just opinions.
For a DIY’er, I think purchasing one of the manufacturer’s products on the market is a better way than trying to do a “mud pan” with a liner and a preslope.
The Kerdi system is well-known but Wedi, Laticrete, and others have similar sytems. I would encourage you to look into these systems and use a pre-made foam base, if possible.
Hi, we are recently remodeling our master shower due to a shower pan and tile job done poorly before we bought our house. And resulted in a leaking shower. Our contractor just put down the shower pan and poored mortar over the shower pan for the curb and has left it to dry for the night. I have never seen one done like this and have some real concerns. I’ve only seen the curb covered with the shower pan. Is this a huge red flag?
If I understand correctly, the contractor formed the shower pan and the curb out of the mortar? If so, there’s nothing alarming about that.
Forming the curb out of the same mortar isn’t easier to do but it’s a way of making a curb that has no penetrations through the waterproofing. When I was building shower pans that way I would do the same thing.
I am in the process of redoing a custom shower after a water leak from the original install about 10 years ago. The contractor I am thinking of using does a traditional mud shower pan and cement board walls using mesh on all the seams and corners and all coated with redguard. My understanding is that this a completely acceptable method of waterproofing a shower. My question is regarding the curb. He is also planning on using cement board for the curb. Are the fastener penetrations ok for the curb since the waterproofing membrane will be over them? There will be a solid piece of granite over the curb if that matters.
With a traditional liner shower system, fastening cement board to the curb and Redgarding over it isn’t an industry recognized method.
The curb should be built out of mud and lath with no penetrations inside, or on top, of the curb.
I am building a steam shower and have used RedGard on it, I had mud bed installed and was going to RedGard it . But, floor sounds hollow in spots, It was put over concrete basement floor. Thinset slurry was not used, should I be concerned? Would Kerdi membrane over mud bed make me feel any better?
At this point, I don’t think putting a Kerdi membrane over the top will help to stabilize it. If the hollow sound is only in spots then something is probably wrong with it and it should be removed and replaced.
We’ve completely renovated our bathroom. We noticed almost immediately that the wallpaper next to the wall where the curb met was wet. After many modifications to the glass shower door, nothing seemed to fix it. We asked the shower door guy to come out and remove the glass and the tile guy came to remove some tiles and pitch the curb more. When the shower glass was removed I noticed that the sliding door guide on the top of the curb was SCREWED through the solid piece of Corian, with plastic mollys, on the inside of the shower. This area gets wet every time one showers. Once the Corian on the top of the curb was removed, there was water all the way across the curb. My theory is the water was running down the glass of the shower door, into the sliding door guide making its way through the screws. The tile guys pitched the top of the curb more and filled in the screw holes with a waterproof epoxy. Then the glass guys came back and reinstalled the shower glass this time using a waterproof epoxy to set the guide for the active sliding glass door. This seems to have fixed the problem but our other shower has the same door guide screwed into the curb. We haven’t noticed any wall damage but I want the glass guys to come back out and remove the active panel of the glass so that we can epoxy in the screw holes and reinstall the glass and door guide with NO screws. Do you think this will solve the problem? The glass guys don’t agree with me that the water was infiltrating the screws on the door guide. I’d appreciate hearing your thoughts about using screwing a door guide onto the top of a shower curb.
I hate it when the glass installer screws into the curb but some companies insist on it and there are some enclosures the require it.
But just because they screw into the curb doesn’t mean that it will leak. Also, sometimes water damage on the side wall is caused by water running along the top of the curb and eventually finding it’s way into the wall. This is why I try to put a “leg” on my showers which is a tile that extends past the curb on the side wall.
To answer your question at the end, once the curb is screwed into it has the potential of being compromised. Filling the hole at this point is no different than filling it with a screw in it.
Hi I have a new construction. It’s been a little over two years and our showering started leaking and flooded the flood below. Based on what I read above it seems that it may not be installed correctly. Can I send you some pics offline?
If this is new construction and under two years then you should be able to get a replacement shower, built correctly, at no cost to you. There’s no way a shower should only last two years and don’t accept any repair that involves caulking and grouting without removing any tile. Tile & grout (& caulk) are not waterproofing.
For photos, you can try to upload them to my DIYTileGuy page on Facebook if you have an account. Otherwise, you register on the John Bridge Tile forum and start a thread in the “Advice” section.
https://m.facebook.com/diytileguy/
I wish I had a better way of doing photos over here but, right now, I don’t.
I’m building a new home thru new construction and the builder I’m using was suppose to put in a bench in my shower and I brought it up that it was missing prior to dry walling but now the entire shower (walls & floor) are already tiled. The builder’s area construction manager said the bench in the shower is installed last, after the tile goes in. I worked for a builder and they never ever did it that way due to wasting tile etc. So wondering what is actually the proper way this builder should have built the shower bench and is it ok to build it on top / after the tile is already put in? Please advise asap and thank YOU for all these great posts!
I’m a little skeptical that retrofitting it is the way they always do it. If I know a shower is going to get a bench then I want to have framing installed so that it’s attached to something.
But it can be retrofitted. They will need to use something foam like the Wedi bench or, perhaps, a Better Bench. Better Bench is a brand that makes an aluminum corner bench that gets tiled around.
If their plan is to frame a bench after-the-fact- then don’t let them do it. It’s going to have to be some sort of product that mounts afterwards.
Hopefully, this has been helpful. Feel free to ask additional questions if you need more information.
Just sent the pics on Facebook via messenger
Hi Joe, I just reread your original comments and a shower doesn’t just “wear out” after two years.
I made some comments on the facebook post but if there isn’t a product failure (which I doubt that there is) then there has to be a workmanship problem. I’m not a lawyer but a shower has to last longer than 2 years.
Maybe you can hire someone that will do a forensic-style demolition and see if they can find the cause?
I had a leak. I dont know if I am saying this right. It was coming from the hot water faucet(in bathroom tub area) something was cracked. I had a contractor come out he said he needed replace all hardware fixtures to fix the leak. He needed break the title in that area. And make everything look in sequence he had suggested putting a shower surround. Would be the best and inexpensive route to go.
He didnt mention that tile would be showing all around the edge. Is this normal? When I had asked him he stated that most surrounds are certain size and others would have be custom ordered and that is very expensive!! He had already gluded it and titles left showing.
Now, he has come back add more Caulk base where surround meets the tub. I can push in on surround on it moves in. Is this normal? They had to paint the title to match it to surround. . My question to you was with keeping in reasonable budget. Was there better way of doing this to where tite would not have shown and surround doesnt move? He said this would last about ten years. Right now. I dont see how!
Thank you for any suggestions.
It sounds like the tile was left on the walls and some sort of fiberglass surround was installed over the tiles. Not sure if I have that right?
It definitely sounds like a budget way of doing it. Obviously, the tiles could have been removed prior to the surround being installed but that, and replacing (and finishing) the wallboard would have added to the costs.
It sounds, to me, like the expectations weren’t clear and that’s where the confusion is coming in. So I really can’t comment on if that was the best way to handle it.
GREAT forum!
Question on how to attach clamps for my glass and the bracket for a hand-held sprayer to the porcelain tile walls of my kerdi membrane shower. Some say to drill through tile and “fill” hole with silicone prior to screwing fixture in place. Have also read that while this will prevent water intrusion from the tile surface, it will not stop water intrusion from the waterproofing membrane penetration which makes sense. So how to attach glass, fixtures, grab bar etc.?
With handheld sprayers and that sort of thing the best that you can do is to drill the hole and fill it with sealant. Preferrably, Kerdi fix but silicone is fine too. Then, if you can seal around the bar with clear silicone then that’s additional insurance.
If you can find a shower glass installer that won’t drill into the curb then that’s best. Additionally, if you installed a foam Kerdi curb then they can’t harm the waterproofing by drilling into it. At least, not unless they drilled all of the ways through into the subfloor.
But some glass companies insist on filling the holes with silicone and you’ll want to make it clear that they are liable for any failures that come from that type of installation. They aren’t common but they do happen.
You can definitely use cement board on the curb. You paint it with Red Guard, then tile and cap it. That’s definitely standard and widely used. Absolutely no leaks.
It’s not standard. It might be commonly practiced but it’s not standard nor acceptable. In fact, you won’t find any industry standard or manufacturer’s product that blesses that installation.
We have a tile shower that was improperly installed when our house was built. We have mold growing in our walls from it leaking and the builders warranty is up. Our installer replaced the a few tiles and caulked the area. He was adiment that it is fixed and wont hear otherwise. We’ve had another installer out and a mold specialist. They both say the floor needs ripped out. My question is is there anyway we can legally go back on the installer?
I would think so. A warranty applies to something built properly. I believe there is a period of time that you can go after the builder for defective workmanship.
An attorney could help with this sort of case.
Thanks for this post. We live in an apartment building and the unit below us has water leaking from above. We conducted a flood test where the water held for the duration of the test. However, when we removed the plug and the water rushed out, some leaking occurred. Any ideas as to what might be the cause? Does the fact that there was no leaking during the test eliminate any sources? We do not yet have access to the neighbor’s unit so have not been able to investigate. Thanks.
If the water doesn’t leak when the drain is plugged but it does leak when the water drains then the leak would have to be below the plug. This would indicate a plumbing drain issue.
I have a curb that was poured wider than discussed. I purchased a 4 1/2 inch threshold then was told to get a 6 1/2 inch. The problem is the interior of the shower floor now no longer meets code 30x3o minimum. I have asked for it to be redone, the curb narrower and the installer lost his temper….claiming there is no such code (Denver), that he won’t fix it, that I picked that size (which I did not and have the receipts to prove it)…
Is there a wat to safely narrow the existing curb back lets say 2 inches without disputing the liner. He poured then lined then poured again, the curb top is cement board with redguard ready for a quartz threshold.
There was no flood test to my knowledge. What should I do and how will I know if you have answered?? thanks!!
A six-inch curb is fairly “normal”. I almost always make mine skinnier but I don’t know that it should be assumed that it would be thinner than 6-inches (+/-) without someone specifying beforehand.
That being said, I don’t think there is a safe way to skinny the curb up without going backward and removing quite a bit of the shower.
Hello, Your comments are very helpful. I have a bench in my shower. The tile didn’t overlap at the front end and I have had a hard time keeping it grouted. It has been about 8 yrs since my shower was done. I know the shower pan was correct and there is a cement backer board top and front to the bench. However, water leaked from somewhere. I removed the front tiles and the little trench at the bottom where the tile was removed keeps filling with water. Does that mean there is water backed up somewhere behind the bench or the little half wall? I want to do the least ripping out possible.I cannot see under the backer board, it is pretty solid. I don’t believe they put a sealer on it. Do you think the whole bench needs to come out or should I just let it dry out for a while? Thanks so much.
If you have cement board on the bench then the bench should have a waterproofing over it. It doesn’t sound like that’s the case. Benches are likely culprits for leaking. If the bench isn’t done properly then the tile around it should be removed on all sides and the bench redone. When it’s being redone it should have mesh tape on the seams, the gaps are filled with mortar, and waterproofing installed over the top of the bench.
Great post, read and service you are providing here! Hoping you could provide some insight to our problem, although reading through, I believe I am narrowing in!
We just had a new shower installed from a one piece to a now nicely designed porcelain tiled shower with frame less glass. The curb is two piece joined approx 23 degree angle, topped with marble sill. Our problem is more than not, after taking a shower you can see a moisture spot start on the outside tip area of the marble sill. (approx 3″ along seam area and 1″ on both sides of sill) that expands over an hour or so, the apparently stops and dries out within 24 hours. *This does not happen every time, but it has been 4 out of 7. Yes, the glass door hing is screwed down at that area. Reading recent post, I am thinking the membrane was pierced when drilling the holes and maybe forgot to add silicone into holes (if that’s what they do)? Also, only hinge /clip with no silicone around edges. Again, not sure if there should be. Any help to point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Under warranty, do you think this is an issue from the frame less glass install? Thank you in advance.
I did want to add, the water appears it is being absorbed by the marble from underneath. No puddle on top. The odd thing is it starts at least 2 inches away from the glass. Thanks again.
It’s hard to say. It could be that the seam is the way that water travels easier. I would keep an eye on it and look for signs of the curb expanding. Things like cracked grout joints, particularly cracked from growth. That would be the indication that there is something wrong with the curb and it’s taking on water and expanding.
Thank you for the quick reply!. I contacted the glass installer who had me send a pic. He is supposed to come by this weekend and take a look.
@DIYTileGuy my home was prebuilt and we had our tile shower leaking, the plumbing was tested and not leaking, so the leak is coming from somewhere else. My shower has a KBRS liner in it, but it doesn’t meet up to the edge of the drain and travels across what looks to me like grout. The pan liner is about an inch or more on one side (it’s cut unevenly) away from the edge of the drain. I have pictures and whatnot, and when they were replacing the drain (which wasn’t the issue) they reused the cutout piece of pan liner (which I believe is the issue). I tried to explain to them that it doesn’t make sense to me that any liner of any sort would be short of the drain. Am I wrong in thinking this way? I’ve watched about a hundred KBRS pan installs of all types, and have yet to see any of them cut short around the drain.
That’s funny that’s the wrong way.you dont cut the line that way you put a small × in the middle and put the drain in and call the the drink flange to the liner.lmao so wrong.then its 100% not to leak.know body use this standard way lmfao
I can’t really visualize the issue. The only KBRS showers that I’m aware of are the foam shower pans. But I don’t understand why something would be cut short of the drain either.
You could check your shower pan by plugging the drain and filling it up with water. You could bucket the water in which would eliminate the pipes from the equation.
I’m not sure what you are referring to. If you could be a little more descriptive with your criticism I’d like to hear it.
I have a 1940’s pier and beam home and I have recently gutted the shower to be remodeled. Wanting the structure to be sound and done right, I hired a contractor.
He rebuilt the shower area with new plywood subfloor, used a thick plastic sheet as the water barrier over subfloor going up at least 12″ or more on walls and installed hardie backer board on top it. He used red guard on the seams of the board. He then installed the shower pan using a mortar mud mix sloping as needed. He did not use red guard on bottom corner where the wall board meets the pan. There are no tiles installed on the floor yet.
My concern is I hear a crunching noise when walking on the mud pan near the edge of the wall (only in one area). Everything seems to be done correctly. What is causing the crunch underneath? My gut says to tear out the pan and start over. I really don’t want to have to spend the money if I don’t have to but I fear it will cause more problems later. I was trying to save moving by installing the tile myself. Shower is almost complete except the floor and the last row of wall tile nearest the floor. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Aaron
I’m not sure what the crunching sound is but it might be movement. Is the shower pan cracking at all? I would think that it would if things are moving.
Read through the queries and your replies and didn’t find my problem. Hope you haven’t addressed it. The intersections between the tile floor and the shower walls weep for hours after a shower.
A tile guy came by and said the problem was faulty construction by our contractor. He fixed the problem–I think!–by poking holes into the sealant between the wall and tile.
Now however, the weeping continues after a few years of being “weep-free.”
I assume the holes filled up over time.
Ok to poke random holes where the weeping is most prevalent with an ice pick.
Or best to call a reputable “tile guy” to sort the problem out professionally?
Many thanks in advance for your advice!
I guess I’m not clear on what weeping means in this case. So my question is: is water getting behind the tile of your shower to the point where it’s building up behind the floor/wall joint?
If so, that’s unusual and, yes, I would provide a way for the water to get out. Something like poking holes in the sealant. I’d also want to know why and where water is getting behind the tile in such volume.
Many thanks for the quick reply!
Somehow the water is building up behind the vertical tiles of the shower wall.
Then it gradually leaks (weeps!) out of the sealant between the shower tile wall and the shower floor tiles.
There’s a slope down to the drain.
Maybe the protective sheet beneath the shower tile floor doesn’t drain properly so the water (where would it come from!?) builds up and goes behind the tile wall to the height of that protective cover and slowly drains out from the floor/wall sealant overnight.
The problem is the slow draining process cultivates mold.
So a tile guy (I think!) poked holes in the sealant and that stopped the mold.
But now I think the holes are plugged up.
The big question is, safe to poke holes in the sealant?
My apologies for the amateur language and the long digression!
Charles
There’s something going on with this shower. Water shouldn’t be building up behind the wall like that. But until you can figure it out, allowing for it to drain is the best temporary fix. I would remove whatever caulking is necessary at the bottom to allow water to drain out. You might need to make more than just small holes.
Dear DIYTileGuy,
Our new tile guy a couple of years ago said the contractor had messed up. I’m pretty sure he (our new tile guy) poked holes in the sealant, saying that was a temporary fix.
The other solution was to tear the whole shower apart!
His fix stopped the mold but the holes probably plugged up and the mold started again.
I’ll try to poke a few experimental holes in the sealant between the wall and floor tiles where the water “weeps” even after I carefully mop the sealant corner and the entire tile floor after every shower.
I’m hoping that behind the tile wall and beneath the tile floor there’s a membrane that keeps water from destroying the wooden structures supporting the shower!
No evidence in the basement that water is leaking out of the shower box.
Many thanks for giving me the confidence to get out my DIY Swiss Army Knife hole puncher!
Charles
I hope it works out OK. Thanks!
This is very eye-opening, thank you.
I just had my shower floor and curb reconstructed and I was not able to watch due to my work schedule.
First completion was a horror… uneven stone “tile” poor grouting and pooling in corners and under bench. I refused to accept this and he redid the tile.
Second attempt stone looked much better, waited the 48 hours I was told to wait for the grout to dry properly and used my newly completed shower.
Holy poo water dripping into my basement office from the shower.
He then told me it was my fault because I didn’t wait 2 weeks to use the shower.
Now I’m not completely ignorant and I am pretty sure that if the liner was done correctly, whether or not I waited 2 weeks, it would not leak into my basement after two showers taken.
Am I wrong in this assumption?
Also, it has been more than 2 weeks since the liner was installed.
A shower doesn’t need two weeks to dry to be water tight. It shouldn’t rely on the grout for waterproofing. It should have been flood tested before installing the pebbles and, if that had been done, both you and him would have known there was a problem before he completed the shower.
So, it sounds like this person still owes you a functional shower.
Hi, we are in the process of installing a shower. We used a vinyl shower pan liner. Do we still need to use Red Gard on the shower pan as well?
Also, how do you seal the space between the backer board and shower pan?
Thank you
You don’t need Redgard when you use a vinyl shower pan liner. For the space between backer board and shower pan, can I assume that you installed the pan first then are installing the backer board on top of the pan? If so, you can seal it with a urethane or 100% silicone sealant.
Hello, I have a bathroom tile question. I was having a retired handyman do some tiling for me in a new shower install. I did not realize that he was not as knowledgeable as I thought. Anyway I have taken over the project. He started tiling the shower wall first but he did not leave enough room at the shower base to get any tile underneath it. Will I have to rip out the first layer and re do it or is it okay if the floor tile does not go under the wall tile?
Everything else with the project has went well, we passed the flood test and all the walls are waterproofed.
Thanks for the help.
It’s OK to set the walls first and cut the floor into the walls. I prefer to tuck the floor under but either way will work.
Hi, my shower leaks slightly around the metal clips that attach the bottom of the frameless glass to the shower riser step. I don’t even let the water from the shower head hit directly at that spot- it appears that it’s the condensation from the glass itself that drips down the glass and leaks to the outside of the glass… Would just a bead of silicone on the inside of the shower address this? Thanks for the expertise.
Hi! I came across your information in JohnBridges.com tile forum. Thanks for commenting on my post about my shower pan waterproofing. I have a follow up question for you.
I’m not DIYing, but rather double checking that the work I’m paying for is performed properly because so far they have made several screw ups.
What is the point of the 2X4s that people put in between the studs at the bottom of the shower? What happens if you skip that step?
Thanks!
Shannon
They are used more for a traditional shower with a liner in it. It keeps the mortar for the shower pan from falling into the stud bay. They also provide support to the backer board. FYI, the perimeter blocking is specified to be done by code. If you have a newer shower with a Kerdi or Kerdi-type system the blocking isn’t as necessary from a functioning standpoint but it’s still code to have them.
I bought my first house knowing the shower was a complete shoddy hack job.
I was told to not use it until I have it repaired.
I have since demolished the entire shower and built a new frame out of 2×4’s.
After I cut each piece of lumber I soaked the ends in thompsons water seal and brushed the water sealer all over the wood then let it dry for 24 hours then I built the frame. The frame looks very good and is plumb and level.
Please try to imagine a frame in the shape of a stop sign – 5 sides.
Two sides are back against the closet and garage wall.
2 sides are in the front and the middle side is the shower entrance where the curb will be. The exterior of the shower frame are now covered in green drywall and will touch the front of the shower curb after I figure out how to build a curb correctly. I am now concerned that having the exterior of the shower frame covered in green drywall and would be touching the shower curb is not safe so I am now scratching my head and thinking about removing the exterior drywall and replacing with cement board so there is no drywall anywhere near where the shower curb will be.
Unfortunately I cannot get any professional guidance anywhere near where I live so I doing everything myself so far. After I figure out how to properly build the shower curb I am going to hire a local licensed plumber to lay the rubber shower liner, seal – configure the drain, and pour the mortar base. I did visit local city inspectors to seek more guidance and request a permit and inspection and they told me in Florida shower building does not require a permit and they will not inspect my work for this. They did say that they would inspect the plumbing though. The city was unable to answer my questions regarding drywall on the exterior of the shower frame and about it touching the shower curb after I do that. I did call the Tile Counsel of North America and bought a book from them and expect it to be here this coming week. I hope the book will help guide me but am not sure what to expect from it. The woman I spoke to told me it is not a how to build a shower book but rather a book of 400 plus pages filled with technical information about tile, shower pans, and other things that may or may not help me. From research I have learned that my shower curb cannot be made out of wood and should be made from concrete. My house sits on a concrete foundation. Should I build a wood form and pour a concrete curb and smooth it out so tile can sit on it neatly? If this is correct would I sink the entrance sides of cement board into that concrete before it is poured or should the cement board of the entrance sit above the cement like it should for the cement board that goes inside the shower frame? Please somebody help guide me. I am more than willing to pay somebody here that is competent in this line of work to talk to me on the phone for a few minutes and look at my photos. I really need help and there is no competent help anywhere near where I live. The tile guys here are incompetent hack jobs that are known for doing shoddy work in terms of building showers.
Hi Chris, and thanks for checking out my blog.
You’re right about the curb being brick and building a form would be a great way to build it. Additionally, I would be careful about having a plumber do your mud work and liner but I know in some states that is a requirement.
There should be slope installed underneath the liner and they usually don’t install that. However, in order to install this slope (we call it a pre-slope) the drain needs to be installed. This is detailed in the TCNA handbood that you have ordered. You’ll want to look into B415 in the 2020 handbook.
Btw, the handbook shows methods and drawings of how things should be done but it doesn’t tell you how to do them.
In regards to installing the backer board, you’ll get different opinions on whether it should be installed before the final mud bed or after the final mud bed. I believe it should be installed after the liner but before the final mud bed that goes on top of the liner.
Some are concerned about water wicking up the cement board but I am more concerned about the backer board not flexing and moving which is harder to do once it’s buried in the mortar. Keep in mind, your backer board screws all have to be installed above the finished curb height.
Finally, it’s OK if you install drywall outside the shower next to the curb. The curb should have a slight slope towards the shower and you should have a gap between the curb and the drywall. But, at some point, you have to transition back to drywall and that is a good place to do it.
If you are looking for step-by-step help the best place to go is the John Bridge Forum. Make an account and start a thread in the “Advice” section. You can upload photos and there is a slight learning curve because the software is older. One tip is to format your paragraphs and possibly even number things to get better responses over there. In fact, you might even see me over there sometimes.
But I am happy to help answer any questions and I do try to respond to every question that I get on this blog.
Is the pre slope you are talking about something I can buy from home depot or lowes?
When I demolished my old shower I removed everything except the drain.
The house foundation – raw concrete is what was left behind and that does slope towards the drain. I know this because I poured a gallon of water on the foundation and watched it move towards the drain and down the drain.
I am right now making a step by step guide that I will post here for you to review and advise me on.
I will post that within the next hour.
Here is the step by step guide I made for myself of what order things are do be done in. PLEASE let me know if this is correct or incorrect along with answering the questions I have written below.
NOTE: That I did interview several guys that advertise as being shower and tile installation experts and they turned out to be are bad news.
1 guy wouldn’t provide me with his physical address and disappeared like a fart in the wind when I asked him for customer references and proof of insurance. I researched him in depth and learned he gave me a fake first name with his real last name because he has a rap sheet a mile long and has been to prison 3 times for dealing coke and beating people up in bars.
The plumbing company that I use for my plumbing services does outstanding plumbing work that has passed inspection with good comments from the city inspector. I called the same company and asked about finishing my shower and the owner came out and I could tell he was not at all confident about answering my questions then he returned with what looked like a 16 year old to ask me questions and his answers to my questions made me believe these folks are not experts in building showers. They do however employee licensed plumbers that do good work installing pipes and such.
The 3rd shower company I had visit me wanted to build my shower curb out of 2×4’s and not use any concrete for that.
The 4th shower builder didn’t show up ghosted me when I called him to remind him he didn’t show up to meet me as scheduled.
The 5th shower guy was the most pleasant and showed me amazing photos of his work, I choose him and hired him. After I inspected his work I fired him and demolished my shower a second time. I didn’t pay him and he replaced all the materials that he damaged in exchange that I don’t give him a poor review or show off the video I made of his shoddy work mentioning his name. He was sincere when he apologized and did return the next day with replacement materials that I told him are going to be destroyed from me having to demolish his shoddy work. Hes a good man and promised me he will not do any more shower work for other people and he is going to buy books and educate himself on the right way to do things when showers are involved. He howerver does good tile work and tiled my bathroom floor which looks very good.
He made the shower cub out of wood.
He cut the rubber shower liner on top of the curb so it did not cover the front of the curb. The front of curb was raw wood exposed. He screwed the shower liner to the top of the wood curb with wood a bunch of wood screws the screwed cement board on top of the shower curb. He did not perform a flood – leak test after I specifically said I want this done. He instead poured the mortar base and didn’t seal the drain at all. After I demolished his work I discovered he has a bunch of screws all the way around the shower perimeter only 3/4of an inch to 1 inch above the mortar base.
IF I had not demolished this I would have experienced serious water damage to my house. He also stated he has never performed a leak test and does not know how to perform one. I wound up purchasing my own inflatable drain plug so I can perform a leak test myself with the next person I hire to help me
As you can see I have had nothing but terrible luck finding a qualified person to help me finish my shower. I live in Deltona Florida.
I am able to hang the cement board and waterproof that myself but am not skilled with knowing how to properly build a shower curb, installing liner, configuring – sealing the drain, or laying tile. I am a skilled wood worker and IT engineer that’s what I know. I know I need to find a qualified professional to help me with the other tasks and this has been a complete nightmare. I am almost about ready to give up, demo all of my work and just buy a pre fabricated shower from home depot if I’m not able to find a qualified person to finish my project.Where I live showers installers are not regulated and permits are not required which is not good for me. Here anybody can print business cards, make a facebook page, use fake photos and advertise that they are professionals and this is what I keep finding.
Here is the step by setup guide I made.
Please respond and correct anything that is wrong below.
I am trying to make sure my project is done correctly and in the right order verses getting things slapped together for a fast hurry up money job from another hucketer in my town
STEPS:
Build shower frame out of 2×4’s.
Drywall, tape, mud, texture, primer, and paint exterior shower walls.
Build form for a concrete shower curb out of 2×4’s for the shower curb and screw into place.
QUESTION: – what kind of tradesman should I call for building the shower curb, installing the rubber shower membrane and configuring the drain, and pouring and leveling the mortar base? Where I live every Tom, Dick, and Harry claims they are experts on this stuff yet there poor reviews and outrageous answers to my questions prove otherwise.
A tile guy? A cement company? A carpenter?
I am an experienced wood worker and when I measure I measure by 32’nds and am precise unlike the shoddy carpenters in my town that can’t read a tape measure accurately. I have no experience building showers although I have received many compliments about the shower frame I built.
QUESTION: – How tall and deep l the shower curb be?
Pour concrete into this shower curb form and slope the curb towards the inside of the shower allow the concrete to set for 24 hours.
QUESTION: – How much of a slope is recommended and do I use a LEVEL to check this or another tool for measuring angles such as a protractor – angle finder?
Unscrew wood form and gently use a hammer to remove the wood form away from the concrete shower curb then throw wood form away.
Have plumber install plumbing valves and pipes in shower wall.
Install pre slope under liner.
QUESTION: – My house foundation is made of concrete and does slope towards the shower drain. Is this the slope you are referring to or is a slope something I buy from a store like home depot?
Install rubber shower liner and configure with drain.
Perform a 24 hour leak test.
Install shower liner.
Hang cement board .
QUESTION: – Why not install the cement board after the mortar shower bed is poured so I absolutely know the cement board will not be touching the mortar shower bed? And if I’m supposed to install the cement board before the mortar shower bed how do I precisely install it height wise so when the morter bed is poured that the two won’t touch each other or there won’t be a gap that is too large?
QUESTION:- How big of a gap should there be between the mortar base and the cement board?
You mentioned that there should be a gap in between the shower curb and the drywall.
QUESTION:- How big should this gap be and wont the gap invite water and moisture into the sides of the drywall?
After the cement board has been hung then use redgard to brush and roll the liquid water proofing material on the interior of the shower onto the cement boards and use a millimeter thickness measuring tool to make sure the thickness of the regard is X amount thick. Apply a second and maybe even a third coat of regard.
Allow mortar base, cement shower curb to cure for 30 days then tile is ready to be applied.
Please respond to this and fill in the answers where I have questions and let me know if this step by step guide is correct or incorrect.
THANK YOU a TON!!!
There are pieces available that I’ve seen before for this but I usually make mine out of the same dry pack that you would use for the shower pan. There are other cement-based products that would work and some dry faster. You need to make sure that it slopes 1/4 inch per foot minimum towards the drain. The 1/4 inch per foot measurement is taken from the furthest point away from the drain. So, the corner of the shower.
1. Tile contractors are the best ones to call to build a shower pan. Since our trade isn’t regulated like plumbers and electricians are you’ll find that not everyone that builds showers does them right. There are some changes in the industry in this regard but this is where we are today.
If you are looking for a tradesperson to install your shower then I always recommend you look at both the NTCA list of members in your area and the CTI list. Neither one of these should be viewed as an endorsement but simply a place to start.
The CTI list is the tile industry’s answer to regulating the trade. The program is in its infancy but there are around 1600 tested members in the USA right now.
Question 2: The curb is typically three 2×4’s stacked on top of one another. Since your shower is being built over a concrete foundation you’ll probably want the bottom 2×4 to treated but none of the others. Typically, you don’t want treated wood in your shower but you do have to protect the wood framing from the concrete slab. This is why a lot of people use bricks for a curb over concrete. But since you have to frame the walls out of wood then I don’t see an issue with doing the curb in wood as long as it’s protected from the concrete slab (for moisture)
Question 3: 1/4 inch per foot minimum so I usually just slope it 1/8 inch. If you’re a woodworker then the easiest way to do it is to plane down the top 2×4 so that it slopes towards the shower.
Keep in mind, the concrete for the curb goes on after the vinyl liner. So frame it, get the plumber in there, then do the preslope, liner, backer board, and final mud bed (and curb)
Question 4: As long as it slopes 1/4 inch per foot then you’ll be fine. When you do the water test- all of the water needs to drain down the drain.
They have these premade slopes that you could use but your shower is a non-standard size. It looks like this company will make a custom shower pan out of foam. That might be something to consider? It would certainly simplify the construction of the shower.
Question 5+6: You can do it that way. When you embed the board in the mortar there is no gap. You pack it right up to the cement board. You could always put some sill seal around the permieter, I suppose.
Question 7: I would think just the opposite. For one thing, we’re talking about the curb touching the drywall outside the shower. The other thing is that if there is a gap (maybe up to 1/4 inch) this would provide a break so that moisture couldn’t travel across. That’s the way that I see it anyway.
The tile bible – TCNA book was delivered today.
It looks like an upper level college technical book and is packed full of technical information. I would encourage anybody reading this blog to buy one and read and flip through it instead of assuming this or that.
I will dig in and flip through it tonight and make notes of things that apply to my situation.
While I dont want to do the tile work myself I do want to do the other pre tasks myself.
What are your thoughts on a solid concrete shower curb?
Where you build a form from wood and pour the concrete curb verses using bricks or wood covered in lath then cement?
When the concrete dries the form would be removed leaving just the concrete curb.
If you went this route how would you configure it with the shower liner?
PS I hope you dont mind me posting all my questions here.
Your blog has been the best website I have found for this kind of stuff.
I think a two stage curb would be easier because you have to get the liner in there. Whether the first stage is bricks, or whatever, having something for the liner to stretch over is beneficial.
For an unknown reason I am not able to post anything on the John Bridge forum. I keep getting an error that says my profile has it yet been approved.
I joined the website last week.
Anyways I have since found a certified tile installer in Florida from this website – http://www.ceramictilefoundation.org
I still need guidance and am hoping you can advise me on my current situation.
So far the following has been done and I advised him to stop the project so I can have a licensed plumber get involved to fix the drain issue – read below to understand why.
#1 He built a shower curb out of 3 pieces of pressure treated 2×4’s and told me this will work good and will not fail me. He wants to attach cement board to the top and exterior front of the curb with cement board then roll or brush on regard. This makes me feel uneasy because this is not mentioned anywhere in the TCNA book. The curb top will be a solid piece of marble and not tile. The front exterior of the curb will be tile.
#2 He made a pre slope out of mortar that does slope towards the drain. It looks good to me.
#3 He installed the shower liner and the surrounding screws are probably 10 to 12 inches above the shower floor which looks good to me.
#4 After this he inserted my inflatable drain plug and filled it with air.
#5 He filled the shower liner or shower base with approx 4 inches of water then left for the day. I told him I will text him the following morning with the results. Several hours later that evening I was in my garage working and observed water puddles that leaked from the shower which is the rear wall of my garage. I took photos of this, removed the drain plug and watched the water flow down the drain then texted him photos of the puddles in my garage. He apologized and came back today and advised me he must not have sealed the drain properly. I observed that it was never sealed in the first place.
#6 He unscrewed the shower drain cover bolts and with a caulking gun applied a thick amount of silicone over the liner where the drain top goes which filled the weep holes with caulk and told me to wait 24 hours then I can perform the second leak test. I stopped him and said you filled the weep holes with caulk which is not ok and said I want to hire a licensed plumber to configure and seal the drain at this point and explained that I can not afford a shower that is going to leak or otherwise fail me now, months, or years later.
Now my concern is the shower curb.
I have this feeling that it is not going to be ok and is going to fail me.
Does the shower liner on the shower curb look like it is installed correctly and in a way that will last for many years?
I have uploaded the photos to my own website for you to look at.
Please look at these photo and tell me what you think.
Photos – http://cfcecorp.com/showerproject
I wrote you again on here but it was not posted. I am guess it is because I included a URL and your wordpress blog blocked my post and saw it as spam?
Anyways please look at my current photos and share your thoughts.
Does the shower curb look good or is this going to fail?
I have since called a licensed plumber to configure the drain correctly since the tile guy did not get the drain installed correctly and did not understand that what weep holes are for. After the tile guy installed the drain and liner the drain leaked then he filled the weep holes with caulk – at this point I said stop until I have a plumber visit me.
Please look at the photos I uploaded to my own website and tell me what you think.
My photos are located at CFCEcorp dot com forward slash showerproject
Thanks.
Chris.
The shower liner looks great. The corners are all folded, rather than cut, wherever possible and it appears to be installed correctly.
I’m confused on the whole drain/plumber issue. The liner should be sealed underneath it which is also on top of the drain flange. There should be no sealant on top of the liner around the drain. I’m not sure of the role of the plumber at this point. You don’t want to move or replace the drain or everything would have to be redone.
My concern is the curb. There should be as little treated lumber in that shower as possible. I understand the bottom 2×4 being treated as it’s on the concrete but the two on top of that should be normal dimensional lumber.
The other issue is wrapping the curb in cement board. There shouldn’t be any penetrations in the curb such as fasteners from cement board. If you look in the “Liberry” in the John Bridge forum, I think in the shower section, John shows how to build a curb with metal lath and mortar. That’s how it should be done. If you want to build a form for the mortar, that’s fine. But there is no reason to penetrate the curb with screws.
The liner shouldn’t have screws in it either except in the front which is outside the shower area. I think that’s what I see in the photos.
Also, you were right about my spam filter not showing your post. It just means that it hides it until I manually approve it.
You’re right. It filtered it but it’s approved now. Thanks
Hi excellent site, very useful information. We are hiring a bathroom/kitchen company to install a shower to replace our 28 yr old tub. They have a AAA Better Business Bureau rating. It’s on the second floor of a stick built house, so water leaks would be a disaster. It will have 3 tiled walls, one niche. I’ll be removing the old tub and opening the walls to the studs up to the ceiling. They will supply and install new plumbing, cast shower base, DenShield on walls, large subway tile to ceiling, frameless glass doors. I will install new ceramic tile floor.
1. Do you have any comments on DenShield ? Anything I should be watching for on the install. I’m not familiar with this product.
2. Should the subfloor be treated between the shower base and new tile floor in case of an water ingress ? I’m thinking a membrane type waterproofing ?
Thanks, Bob
You can see my comments on Denshield in this post. I’m not a fan of the product but it can be used with success in a shower.
Additionally, there should always be some sort of waterproof membrane in a shower but it depends on how the company is going to build the shower and which shower system they are going to use. They should be able to tell you the brand name of a shower system that they will install or point to a method in the TCNA handbook of how they are going to build it. If they can’t do either of those things then they probably aren’t worth hiring.
https://www.diytileguy.com/shower-waterproofing/
Finally, make sure that whatever system they build is flood tested. Many installers don’t do this one critical step.
Good luck with the renovation!
Hi there,
We have a tile installer currently working on our shower. He’s installed green board with redgard on top. We have expressed to him our hesitance in this method, but he has “never had a failed or leaking shower”.
Super nice person, but we are disagreeing on how this should be completed. I asked if he could install the schluter kit over the redgard & green board. He had placed 4 tiles when the stop work happened. He is saying that to remove the tile would damage the redgard, green board, and the shower pan would have to be demo’d and redone. What are your thoughts on how we should handle this? Thank you.
He’s in the wrong. Nowhere on the Redgard instructions does it list green board as a suitable substrate. Unfortunately, I think he has to start over and build a shower that meets industry standards. It’s a good thing that you stopped him when you did.
The sandy grout on all four bottom edges of my shower has cracked after 10 years. This is where vertical tiles meet the horizontal shower floor. I assume the liner beneath is still holding because water is still visible in the cracks all day long, so it has nowhere to go. I want to reseal the cracks but how do I do this if water is ever-present?
The sandy grout on all four bottom edges of my shower has cracked after 10 years. This is where vertical tiles meet the horizontal shower floor. I assume the liner beneath is still holding because water is still visible in the cracks all day long, so it has nowhere to go. I want to reseal the cracks but how do I do this if water is ever-present? Do I potentially have a swamp over the liner and under the floor tiles? What to do?